Important Announcement

See here for an important message regarding the community which has become a read-only site as of October 31.

 
Post Reply
Page 1 of 2  •  1 2 Next
9 years ago  ::  Nov 21, 2008 - 11:47AM #1
river8101
Posts: 5,587
Thought I should post this again, because I guess it's somewhere in the old forum.   Anyway, can't find it in the newer forum.   But I have read so many new posts here that are out of sync about how Israel was formed again, that I thought I should post it again.  So here goes.

Israel and Palestine History

I’m writing this to correct some of the erroneous beliefs about the restoration of Israel, and how it began.

Let's look at the historical record, starting with Mark Twain's description of Ottoman Empire (Turkish) Palestine, which he visited in 1867. I'll note that Twain's works are known for his accurate description of the setting (a literary genre known as "realism".

"[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds -- a silent mournful expanse... A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action... We never saw a human being on the whole route [from Damascus to Jerusalem]... There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country." [_The Innocents Abroad_]

Jewish revival began in 1882, but at the turn of the century about 1/3rd of the Jewish population left due to hardships imposed by the Muslim Ottoman empire that ruled the country for 400 years. By 1909 the Jews were back at it (Tel Aviv had just been founded -- in what was previously barren sand dunes -- and plans were in the works for the first Kibbutz) but still in 1913 the renewal hadn't had a chance to spread.

Let me add that such material isn't that difficult to find (though it may not be readily available on the Web, that's why we still have libraries). Virtually all travelers provided such descriptions of the territory, and similar desolation can be seen in the works of painters.

In fact, it was this inhospitable landscape that would later give British Mandate officials an excuse to restrict Jewish immigration (dooming thousands who would be left stranded in Nazi Europe) because, they argued, the country could only support 300,000, 450,000... 750,000... people, though the real reason was Arab pressure.

So we've seen that even into the 20th century, Palestine was a backwater of the Ottoman Empire. There were already vast numbers of villages that had been previously abandoned (not having anything to do with the Jews, as would later be claimed, but due to natural elements). The small percentage of fellahin who worked the land frequently moved between different plots.
“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
Quick Reply
Cancel
9 years ago  ::  Nov 21, 2008 - 11:49AM #2
river8101
Posts: 5,587
But what lands did the Jews obtain and how did they get them?

Let me start this section by emphasizing that The Jewish perspective on Palestine was that with proper development, there would be room for all. Many of the early settlers were Labor Zionists and they identified with the poor Arab fellahin. In 1920, David Ben Gurion (who would later declare the State of Israel and become its first Prime Minister) stated: "under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them... Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price."

Thus the focus was on the purchase of uncultivated lands, often swamps or barren sand dunes, and with no tenants (e.g. the Hula valley, Tel Aviv).

In 1930, John Hope Simpson (chair of the Hope Simpson Commission) noted that Jews "paid high prices for land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay." (P. 51, Hope Simpson report)

The next year, after Arab cries about being dispossessed from their land, Lewis French led a British effort to provide land to Arabs that had been displaced. Of the 3,000 applications received, 80% were determined to be invalid. Ultimately, only about 100 landless Arabs were offered alternative plots. (from French's Supplementary Report submitted to the Palestine Royal Commission.)

In 1936 the Peel Commission arrived on the scene. From its PRC report (p. 242): "much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamp and uncultivated when it was purchased.... there was at the time... little evidence that the owners possessed either the resources or training needed to develop the land."

The vast majority of Jewish owned lands had been uncultivated, often thought to be uncultivatable. Jews, who comprised roughly a third of the population, only held 11% of the land that was defined as "arable". The Peel Commission found that any land shortage was "due less to the amount of land acquired by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population."

This increase far exceeded population increases in neighboring countries and, not surprisingly, took place in areas where development by Jews was at work. While Jewish immigration was regulated, restricted and at times totally forbidden by the British, scores of thousands of Arabs crossed into Palestine from miles and miles of poorly patrolled land borders.
“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
Quick Reply
Cancel
9 years ago  ::  Nov 21, 2008 - 11:58AM #3
river8101
Posts: 5,587
So this was the glorious country of Palestine that the Palestinians (most of them great, great grandchildren of those who live there now) talk about. Most of their ancestors were immigrants, brought to Palestine between WWI and II by the British at the request of the other Arab countries who promised them cheap oil if they helpe.  They did.  In the meantime, Jews had started settling there and building up the land.

The myth that the area was thriving prior to Jewish development is false. It had its moments, but alternated between desert and malaria infested swamps. So much for the claim that the land had been held, or at least worked if not owned by a family, for "generations". Plots were changed "annually

Thus, while most people who don't know the history of Israel, think Jews stole the land, they are very much mistaken. It was purchased. Israeli land was developed into orange groves from swamps from sand dunes to cities. And now, the Palestinians who hadn't the least interest in that land until the Jews developed it. wanted it back. While the Israeli population increased slowly, the Arab population increased ten-fold both from immigration and very large families huddled into poor neighborhoods. Instead of building infrastructure, US aid was pocketed by Arafat and other Palestinian leaders to increase their bank accounts and to wage wars.

Arafat himself was no Palestinian. Like most Palestinians he was also an immigrant; an Egyptian. After the UN partitioned Palestine, and declared Israel a state, Palestine, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt, armed to the teeth, declared war on Israel. Though Israel had few weapons, and no help from any other country, they won the 1948 War of Independence. The Arabs have waged 5 wars on Israel, and lost them all, Though won in bloody battles, Israel was forced to return the West Bank, most of Jerusalem, the Sinai and other territories which they gained with their lives in wars that the Arabs started.

That's the story. Most of you know the rest. The Intifada, the suicide bombers, the constant attacks of Arabs on Israeli settlements, the canons from the Golan Heights, which, rained down on Jewish kibbutzes, (farms) and the theft of all the money supplied by the US to Palestine which enriched Arafat's pockets and is now in the hands of his young wife and a Swiss bank. To blind the people as to what he was doing (stealing American money) Arafat ( a terrorist himself who in his younger days blew up Jewish children's school buses) encouraged Palestinians to terrorize the Israelis. Arafat continued his terrorism from Jordan and Lebanon (two Arab countries), and was kicked out of both for causing anarchy and chaos. He returned to Palestine, and more terroist groups formed and developed, most under his directive.

Palestinian groups that support and carry out acts of political violence include Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, - General Command, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Abu Nidal Organization, all of which are officially listed as terrorist organizations by the United States and the European Union. Until 1993, the PLO was also listed as a terrorist group, but in 1988 Arafat renounced violence. (duh) Didn't happen. The PLO Charter's full text of this infamous document negates Israel's right to exist and calls for its destruction through violence. Peace Watch has explained, the PLO's vote on April 24, 1996 did not satisfy its legal obligation to amend the charter.

Terrorism was picked up by other Arab countries. Now it goes on around the Arab world.

Jan: 2008

"Two polls released last week, from Keevoon Research, Strategy & Communications and the Arabic-language newspaper As-Sennara, survey representative samples of adult Israeli Arabs on the issue of joining the PA, and they corroborate what Gheit says. Asked, "Would you prefer to be a citizen of Israel or of a new Palestinian state?" 62 percent want to remain Israeli citizens and 14 percent want to join a future Palestinian state. Asked, "Do you support transferring the Triangle [an Arab-dominated area in northern Israel] to the Palestinian Authority?" 78 percent oppose the idea and 18 percent support it."

Seems the propaganda about  the Palestinians leaving Israel to live under a Palestine regime are not true.

For further information about the history of Israel and Palestine, suggest reading "From Time Immemoriral"   
Origines of the Israeli-Paliestinian conflict, by Joan Peters, a Christian.      The name Palestine was given to Judaea by the Romans after their war because one of the Jews long time enemies were the Philistines.  Further humiliation.
“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
Quick Reply
Cancel
9 years ago  ::  Nov 21, 2008 - 12:29PM #4
LeahOne
Posts: 18,418
River, todah rabah for your work here!  I've got to go off and drudge for dollars now, but hope to be back later to read....

Shabbat Shalom, everyone  :  ))
Quick Reply
Cancel
9 years ago  ::  Nov 21, 2008 - 4:15PM #5
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,932
[QUOTE=LeahOne;911600]River, todah rabah for your work here!  I've got to go off and drudge for dollars now, but hope to be back later to read....

Shabbat Shalom, everyone  :  ))[/QUOTE]

BS"D

Amen!  I second that emotion!  Todah raba River!  :)
Quick Reply
Cancel
9 years ago  ::  Nov 21, 2008 - 6:29PM #6
river8101
Posts: 5,587
Thanks.   

Just a few added notes.  Though you may find some bad reviews around the internet, most of them by far leftists, a few commies and anti-Semites, here are the good reviews.

Christian Century, NYT Book Review, Washington Post Book Review, National Review, New Republic, Atlantic Monthly, LA Times, Toronto Star, Theodore H. White, Elie Wiesel, Paul Cowan Lucy Dawidowicz, Arthur Goldberg (former Associate Justice Supreme Ct., Midstream, Saul Bellow, William O'Brien, Georgetown University, Commentary, and others.  Not bad, huh?
“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
Quick Reply
Cancel
9 years ago  ::  Nov 22, 2008 - 7:03PM #7
ItsAllALie
Posts: 4,421
Thank you so much, Riv,,,,

As you know, I wasn't raised Jewish,,,,,,there's a whole other culture within Christianity about why we need to support Israel, and of course, that's the one I was raised with,,,Of course, no longer being Christian, many of those thought processes no longer apply, and I have been struggling with the history of Israel and Palestine,,,,trying to understand it from a Jewish perspective, rather than a Christian perspective,,,and at the same time from a humanitarian perspective,,,,This issue is one I've wrestled with educating myself about. It's harder than you'd think,,,,,I'd read halfway through a legnthy article and discover the author was pro-Palestine,,,,sigh,,,,it's really not as easy as you'd think. It's a confusing issue,,,,,basically because I don't want ANYONE to die,,,,Israeli or Palestinian,,,,

Mind you, I truly want peace there.  It's not just that I want the Jews to be "right",,,we need peace there,,,,but not at any cost.  I read somewhere that if Palestine puts down her weapons, there will be peace,,,,,,if Israel puts down her weapons, there will be no more Israel. This makes sense to me, just from the perspective that Israel is basically surrounded. I can not imagine the US putting down her weapons if a similar situation was found in Canada and Mexico.

Thanks for the great reading material,,,,,like I said, it's harder to educate myself on this issue than I thought it was,,,there's so much conflicting information out there,,,,,

One question,,,,ridiculously basic in it's simplicity,,,I feel foolish even asking it, as it seems there must be a very simple answer that I'm overlooking,,,

why on earth does Palestine think they have a right to the land if it was paid for honestly by Israel?

If I sell my home for 50 grand today,,,,,,what makes me think I can have it back in 20 years when it's worth 300 grand and the owners have put blood, sweat, tears and money into it?

Or am I being too simplistic? I'm sure Palestine must have a POV on this,,,,but if the land was paid for, then the land was paid for,,,,,

Holly
Quick Reply
Cancel
9 years ago  ::  Nov 23, 2008 - 5:08AM #8
river8101
Posts: 5,587
Holly, The land was paid for.  Most of the Arabs who owned large amounts of old Palestinian family land didn't live there,  and were happy to get rid of it, to sell it for large amounts of money.  It was not hospitable land, and the rich Arabs did nothing to build it up.   Jewish cemeteries had been desecrated, and a Mosque had been built where the Temple once stood.   

Muslims do not want anyone who has a larger population than they do living in a place where they reside.   The Palestinians who live there now do not have a separate language or culture from any other Arab country in the area.   They came from neighboring states to infiltrate Palestine when the Jews began building it up.     This annoyed the Muslim biggies and therefore they prevailed upon the Brits who inherited the land of Palestine (and other lands) from the Ottoman Turks who called all that land theirs for 400 years.  The Brits won it,  but the idea of anyone but Muslims being in authority in that part of the world was an anathema to Muslim leaders.    Therefore since they had the oil, which the Brits needed badly after WWI , the Arabs made a deal with the Brits.  Get rid  of Jewish building in Palestine and we will supply you with all the oil you need.   The Brits said, OK, and so now the Jews were at war with the Brits, who tried to keep them out after WW2.   What was left of the Jewish population after WW2 in Europe was stranded in various British camps around Cyprus and other places in Europe.   Many of them were homeless children whose parents had been murdered in the Shoah, and the rest were scattered Jews who had escaped the Nazis or were still found alive in the camps after the war.  They were not in good shape. 

Meanwhile Palestinian Jews and European Jews  tried to sneak Jews into Palestine from those camps, by renting or buying old ships from friendly towns,  and so the Jews, Arabs and Brits were having a ground war in Palestine.   The Jews were determined to have a home of their own after 2 thousand years of wandering around and being persecuted by the Christians world and they fought back.   

So the Jews, were fighting the Arabs and the Brits until finally the Brits packed up and left, after Israel was declared a state by the UN.  Then the wars began between the Arabs and Jewish settlers.   Btw, Jews have always lived in Palestine.   They never completely abandoned their home.  Many came to Palestine after being kicked out of Spain during the Inquisition.  The Arabs, for the most part didn't care, and neither did the Turks.  After all, the Jews were a small population and mostly kept to themselves.   It was only after the Jews started coming in from other lands and turning the land green, building cities out of nothing that the Arabs took notice.  The Jews came in from lands where they were still  being persecuted as Jews, such as Russia and began building up Palestine which had been nearly abandoned for all intent and purposes, that the all the friction began,

You might enjoy a film called Exodus.   I'm sure you can rent it.   Look it up on Amazon.
“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
Quick Reply
Cancel
9 years ago  ::  Nov 23, 2008 - 6:06AM #9
river8101
Posts: 5,587
PS  There's also the book, Exodus, and I'm sure it's in your local library.   Leon Uris.   There's also the book I mentioned before, if you really want to know all the particulars and separate the facts from the fiction.   "From Time Immemorial"  by Joan Peters.
“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
Quick Reply
Cancel
9 years ago  ::  Nov 23, 2008 - 8:20AM #10
ItsAllALie
Posts: 4,421
[QUOTE]The land was paid for. Most of the Arabs who owned large amounts of old Palestinian family land didn't live there, and were happy to get rid of it, to sell it for large amounts of money. It was not hospitable land, and the rich Arabs did nothing to build it up. Jewish cemeteries had been desecrated, and a Mosque had been built where the Temple once stood.

Muslims do not want anyone who has a larger population than they do living in a place where they reside. The Palestinians who live there now do not have a separate language or culture from any other Arab country in the area. They came from neighboring states to infiltrate Palestine when the Jews began building it up. This annoyed the Muslim biggies and therefore they prevailed upon the Brits who inherited the land of Palestine (and other lands) from the Ottoman Turks who called all that land theirs for 400 years. The Brits won it, but the idea of anyone but Muslims being in authority in that part of the world was an anathema to Muslim leaders. Therefore since they had the oil, which the Brits needed badly after WWI , the Arabs made a deal with the Brits. Get rid of Jewish building in Palestine and we will supply you with all the oil you need. The Brits said, OK, and so now the Jews were at war with the Brits, who tried to keep them out after WW2. [/QUOTE]

Hey, Riv,,,thanks for the great explanation,,I will get those books you mentioned,,,but here's the part that makes no sense to me,,,,how could the British inherit land from the Ottoman Turks that was PAID for by Israel?

perhaps those books will answer those questions for me,,,I'm sure it's not a simple answer,,,,but it seems over and over what I run into is simply that no one wanted the land until Israel bought it and made something out of it, all it was was a convenient place to push the Jews into because nobody wanted the Jews,,,,,,,and once something was made of the land, they just wanted to push them out so the Arabs could have it.

Not fair.

Now mind you, I hate that Palestinian children are dying just as much as I hate Jewish children dying,,,,but can the Palestinians cry foul when they are trying to steal land paid for honestly by another? Can I cry foul if I go into a convenience store to rob them, armed to the teeth and get shot? I hardly think so,,,,

Thanks again,,,,,it was more appreciated than you know,,,,

Holly
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 2  •  1 2 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook