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5 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2009 - 9:06PM #521
Karma_yeshe_dorje
Posts: 12,391
Hi Redfrog777:

I spent ages just reporting bugs to BNet.

Kava has improved my dreaming.
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5 years ago  ::  May 15, 2009 - 5:16AM #522
Kay404
Posts: 174

 


Mar 5, 2009 -- 12:24PM, Redfrog777 wrote:


 Journeys made with entheogens are not the same as drumming journeys are not the same as fasting journeys are not the same as deprivation journeys etc.etc.


 Discounting entheogens because they are not P.C. or because of the potential dangers evolved is not intellectually honest.


 There is a place and necessity for ALL forms of shamanic journey. Especially those that are dangerous and/or painful. Perhaps one of the greatest dangers of this world is the fallacy of safety. This concept breeds complacency. This same complacency is fatal as it drains off the necessity of effort.


 Entheogens stress the ego in ways that few other methods can. That reason alone is sufficient to warrant honest consideration for using them. With honest effort a relationship with the spirit of a particular entheogen can be developed. And very powerful awareness's and insights can be achieved as a result of that relationship.



 Are you saying that everyone who practices shamanism MUST practice every style of journey, or their shamanism is invalid?  Would you tell the holy men of some of the North American tribes, or the shamans of Siberia, that because they only journey to the drum their work doesn't measure up?


Mar 5, 2009 -- 12:24PM, Redfrog777 wrote:


 Discounting entheogens because they are not P.C. or because of the potential dangers evolved is not intellectually honest.



Just out of curiosity, on what do you base your accusation that I discount entheogens because they are "not PC?"   


In fact, I don't discount entheogens at all.  However, I disagree with you on whether they are a good path for most people who grew up in contemporary, non-shamanic culture.  The dangers include soul loss, entanglements with malevolent - or simply greedy - "ghosts," and possession, among others.  These are not theoretical dangers.  They are things that I have seen and had to help clean up after.  If you think that my taking them seriously is "not intellectually honest," then perhaps you haven't seen the effects such things can have on people.


One of the things that strikes me about you and ShamanMystic is your focus on fighting complacency and needing to break down the ego.  Perhaps this is part of why we see things so differently.  I never needed entheogens to break down my ego.  That was done for me in childhood by severe abuse.   Complacency is not something I have a lot of experience with.  And many of the people who are drawn to shamanism have had some parallel kind of life experience.  Most of them don't need to be broken down any further.  Often it seems that the spirits are working with them more, at least at first, on finding their way to a new, more genuine wholeness, grounded in deep spiritual experience. 


I respect the value of entheogens within a traditional shamanic framework, especially for those who were raised in a traditional shamanic culture.  But recommending them wholesale to people who have no cultural framework and no traditionally trained elders to guide them seems to me to be irresponsible.  The dangers are real, and can have real - and profoundly negative - effects on people's lives.  And journeying to the drum is real.  It can open the "third eye" - shamanic sight - open the way into spirit realms, and allow the person to develop profound relationships with many kinds of spirits. 


The "feel" of journeying to the drum may be different from entheogenic journey, just as in my own experience the feel of an OBE is different from an NDE, which is different from a "big dream" (a shamanic dream), which is different from a mystical experience, etc.  But in spite of the feel being different, I have never seen or heard anything to convince me that you can go places with entheogens that we can't go with the drum, or that you can connect with spirits that we can't connect with, or that you can do healing work beyond what we can do, discover beauty or wonders beyond what we discover, or experience personal transformation beyond what we experience.  Those of us who are willing eventually face both danger and pain.  Those who need to be "torn asunder" encounter such experiences.  And there are initiations that are devastating, and leave you utterly transformed.  It may not be the same kind of experience it would have been with entheogens, but it is just as profound, and just as life-changing.


I'm not trying to tell you that entheogens are wrong for you.  I'm trying to let people who were raised in contemporary, non-shamanic cultures know that there are safer, more reliable ways for them to connect with spirit realms - and they can still have the full depth of connection, personal transformation, and access to healing for themselves, for other people, and if they are so inclined, for working to help heal the Web of Life and the Earth, herself.


 

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5 years ago  ::  May 15, 2009 - 7:49PM #523
Redfrog777
Posts: 2,136

Kay, I will respond to your post in a few days. #1 I am getting ready of for a big lodge ceremony in the morning. #2 I don't think that you are being very honest to my original post and I want to take the time to review my  posts and your response before I respond. 

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5 years ago  ::  May 16, 2009 - 11:32PM #524
Kay404
Posts: 174

 


Redfrog,


I hope that everyone involved in the ceremony received many blessings. 


My intent was to respond clearly to your post.  Still, I know that what I understood your post to say may not have been what you meant for it to say.  That's one of the hazards of this kind of communication, with printed words on a screen, no tone of voice, facial expression, body language, etc., to help us interpret what the other person actually means.  I respect the fact that you want to review both my posts and your own before replying, and  I look forward to continuing our exchange and clarifying our positions.  Whether we end up agreeing or disagreeing, I would like us each to at least understand what the other is trying to say.


Bright blessings on your path,


Kay

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5 years ago  ::  May 24, 2009 - 12:09PM #525
Redfrog777
Posts: 2,136


Hello Kay,


 


 Thank you BTW for the well wishes. It was a difficult but very powerful ceremony.


 


 I think that what seems to happening with this thread. You have the “Been to the other side camp” who are clear and adamant about the benefit and usefulness of substances within the context of shamanic journey.


 


 Then you have the “Don’t do it there are better safer ways that are just the same and just as powerful” camp. Who are clear and adamant about avoiding the perceived dangers of the use of substance within said context.


 


 There seems to be very little middle ground here.


 


 From my POV, when someone who has never made a journey utilizing any entheogens, says you don’t need that, I have a better more powerful way that is safer and non-toxic too. It’s simply naive and offensive really. It’s not being honest in the most basic sense.


 


 The best correlation that I can give you would be a teen who has just finished his drivers ed. class, telling an over the road long haul truck driver how to drive. While the new driver has the knowledge and skills to drive a car. He lacks the fundamental experience to honestly and intelligently to discuss the subject with any real depth or substance. He may know how to drive a car. But he has no real idea how to drive a 50,000 loaded 53 ft 18 wheel 18-gear tractor-trailer. While the two vehicles can get each driver to the same destination. Both vehicles are radically different, and each is capable of doing very very different things. However only one of the drivers knows from direct first hand experience, the capabilities of both vehicles.


 That is about as clear as I can make it. I hope it help to shed light on the subject.


 


 Kay, I have no doubt, really no doubt at all about your connection and/or your working in the realms of spirit. It is clear, simply in your words and your approach to these forums. Whatever it is that you are doing, it works. And I look forward to reading your posts.


 


 But, and this is a really big but. Without the direct first hand experience of an overwhelming entheogen experience. Or more appropriately a long term consciences relationship with a specific entheogen. It is not possible for you the honestly and unbiasedly compare the different techniques.


 


 That being said, and this is what I have been saying along. There is a very important place for the use of entheogens within the modern shamanic movement. I fully agree that competent knowledgeable facilitators are lacking. I fully agree that useful practical and pragmatic knowledge is in short supply. I also fully agree that there are far too many naive fools running around eating mushrooms calling themselves shamans. IMO, these realities reflect the same fundamental lack of understanding that tried to destroy shamanism in all of its forms to begin with.


 


 It is my belief that shamanism in all of its forms is finding its way back to the people. Certainly those forms have had to evolve and grow and adapt, but more and more there are signs to indicate that people are returning to a direct relationship with the spirit worlds. What ever the form that takes, drumming, dance, sensory deprivation, fasting, rituals of ordeal, tantric sex, etc.etc. These methods are developing and finding there way to those who are so called. The same with the shamanic use of entheogens. I believe that with an honest, mature and dedicated effort. The knowledge of how to utilize and work with said substances can be regained. Of course it will not be a cultural history going back a thousand years. Such an expectation is immature and unnecessary.  But the practical, pragmatic aspects can be found. They can be utilized to the benefit of the community. And a body of knowledge and history can grow and develop as a result of that honest effort.


 


 The landscape of shamanism within this world is changing. What that is going to look like is anyone’s guess. Not giving honest consideration to any aspect of that changing landscape is simply denying ourselves another potentially power tool to utilize along the path.


 


 


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5 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2009 - 10:03AM #526
Redfrog777
Posts: 2,136

Bump

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2009 - 3:24AM #527
Redfrog777
Posts: 2,136

Jun 19, 2009 -- 10:03AM, Redfrog777 wrote:


Bump




Bump

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 04, 2009 - 6:06PM #528
whirlinggal
Posts: 4,329

RFrog==hi. Have you read "Plants of the Gods"? It's a pretty good intro to multicutural/historical entheogen use.

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 24, 2009 - 4:04PM #529
sonnymoon42
Posts: 1,761

Yeah, scrambling one's brain chemistry is a great pathway to spiritual enlightenment. 

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 24, 2009 - 8:40PM #530
Redfrog777
Posts: 2,136

you bother to read any of the opening post there sonny? Or are you just a pointless drive by? 

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