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Switch to Forum Live View Another contradiction in the Bible: John the Baptist
7 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 4:54PM #31
Daldianus
Posts: 32,442

subtleguy01 wrote:

Jerry: Indeed! Man, that Elijah/ John guy is a real interesting character. In fact, he allegedly shows up again as Elijah at the Transfiguration, which allegedly occurred after John the Baptists death.  ;)



Maybe Elijah/John was actually a shapeshifter:

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 5:06PM #32
jlb32168
Posts: 13,402
[QUOTE=Daldianus;382502]Why don't you just answer the actual question of how John was able to recognize Jesus as the one who was suppose to baptize with the Holy Spirit when he didn't yet know who Jesus was?[/quote]

How do you derive the conclusion that in St. Matthew’s Gospel, the Baptist didn’t know who Jesus was? You cannot possibly derive that conclusion from anything that St. John’s Gospel said.

All St. John’s Gospel says is that the Baptist knew upon Christ’s baptism that Christ would be the One who would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with Fire.  That’s a far cry from “The Baptist only knew who Jesus was.”

#1 – The Baptist didn't know who Jesus was before his baptism, period.  No name, number, Social Security, distinguishing feature, you name it.  The Baptist didn't know jack about who this man was that said, "Baptize me."

#2 – The Baptist didn't know Jesus was "the Baptizer by Fire and the HS," which was a special designation signifying a special individual, the meaning of which God had apparently impressed upon the Baptist in some form or fashion of which the text doesn't elaborate.

They are two different things altogether.  You’re arguing the first one because only by arguing it can you sustain your erroneous charge that there’s a contradiction.  Of course, it isn’t logical argumentation because the two accounts are speaking of two different facts that the Baptist knew about Christ – one of which was not revealed until the Latter’s baptism.  The second premise above does not preclude the Baptist from knowing Christ on a personal basis.  Given that they were cousins, that seems a more likely interpretation.

It’s a “fallacy of accident” – you’ve destroyed the qualifiers because your argument folds if they’re considered.

Apparently your belief system affords you the freedom to misrepresent information.  Unfortunately for me, I must be encumbered by the ethics of correct representation and logic. 

Oh to have the liberty that is yours!
Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 5:10PM #33
selah
Posts: 1,512
[QUOTE=Daldianus;382319]How did he know this when he didn't know who Jesus was before the Holy Spirit came down on him as a dove?


Selah:How did He know what??  Just becauseJtB recognized that Jesus was a 'greater'man than He,did not mean that He knew that He was "The Christ".

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 5:14PM #34
selah
Posts: 1,512
[QUOTE=jlb32168;382667]How do you derive the conclusion that in St. Matthew’s Gospel, the Baptist didn’t know who Jesus was? You cannot possibly derive that conclusion from anything that St. John’s Gospel said.

All St. John’s Gospel says is that the Baptist knew upon Christ’s baptism that Christ would be the One who would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with Fire.  That’s a far cry from “The Baptist only knew who Jesus was.”

#1 – The Baptist knew who Jesus was.
#2 – The Baptist knew Jesus was the Baptizer by Fire and the HS.

They are two different things altogether.  You’re arguing the first one because only by arguing it can you sustain your erroneous charge that there’s a contradiction.  Of course, it isn’t logical argumentation because the two accounts are speaking of two different facts that the Baptist knew about Christ – one of which was not revealed until the Latter’s baptism.

It’s a “fallacy of accident” – you’ve destroyed the qualifiers because your argument folds if they’re considered.

Apparently your belief system affords you the freedom to misrepresent information.  Unfortunately for me, I must be encumbered by the ethics of correct representation and logic. 

Oh to have the liberty that is yours![/QUOTE]




Yea,what he said!  LOL :D

Selah
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 5:15PM #35
Daldianus
Posts: 32,442

jlb32168 wrote:

How do you derive the conclusion that in St. Matthew’s Gospel, the Baptist didn’t know who Jesus was? You cannot possibly derive that conclusion from anything that St. John’s Gospel said.



Jesus knew who John was, according to 'Matthew', BEFORE his baptism. Hence his reluctance to baptize him. It's John who denies that the Baptist knew who Jesus was BEFORE he saw the Holy Spirit come down on Jesus as a dove!

John 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' 31 I myself did not know him.

33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'

Both statements (Matthew & John) obviously cannot both be true.

They are two different things altogether.  You’re arguing the first one because only by arguing it can you sustain your erroneous charge that there’s a contradiction.  Of course, it isn’t logical argumentation because the two accounts are speaking of two different facts that the Baptist knew about Christ – one of which was not revealed until the Latter’s baptism.

It's actually a matter of chronology, my friend. Read both accounts again, slowly.

Apparently your belief system affords you the freedom to misrepresent information.  Unfortunately for me, I must be encumbered by the ethics of correct representation and logic. 

Oh to have the liberty that is yours!

Your attempts to ridicule me are so amusing. And cute :)

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 5:18PM #36
Daldianus
Posts: 32,442

selah wrote:

Selah:How did He know what??  Just because JtB recognized that Jesus was a 'greater'man than He,did not mean that He knew that He was "The Christ".



How did he recognize or know that Jesus was this person that was supposed to baptize with the Holy Spirit and therefore wouldn't need to be baptized by him?

selah wrote:

Yea,what he said!  LOL :D



Actually, no. That doesn't make sense either. See my reply to him.

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"Eternity is very long, especially towards the end." - Woody Allen
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 5:28PM #37
jlb32168
Posts: 13,402
[QUOTE=Daldianus;382698]Jesus knew who John was, according to 'Matthew', BEFORE his baptism. Hence his reluctance to baptize him. It's John who denies that the Baptist knew who Jesus was BEFORE he saw the Holy Spirit come down on Jesus as a dove![/quote]

No that’s NOT what St. John’s Gospel says, Daldianus. 

St. John’s Gospel says:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.  Joh 1:29-33

It says that the Baptist did not know that Christ was the same person [which baptizes with the Holy Ghost.]

It does NOT say that the Baptist did not know who Christ was at all.  That’s what you wish it said.  Somehow, by argumentum ad nauseam, you are hopeful that reality with contort itself to reflect your opinion. Oh if only things worked that way.

[QUOTE=Daldianus;382698]It's actually a matter of chronology, my friend. Read both accounts again, slowly.  Your attempts to ridicule me are so amusing. And cute :)[/QUOTE]

If you find the exposure of your dissemblance amusing then that’s wonderful.  I certainly enjoy demonstrating how you contort biblical text to manufacture contradictions out of thin air.  It also teaches others to do the same thing.
Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 5:48PM #38
Daldianus
Posts: 32,442

jlb32168 wrote:

No that’s NOT what St. John’s Gospel says, Daldianus. 

It says that the Baptist did not know that Christ was the same person [which baptizes with the Holy Ghost.]

It does NOT say that the Baptist did not know who Christ was at all.  That’s what you wish it said.  Somehow, by argumentum ad nauseam, you are hopeful that reality with contort itself to reflect your opinion. Oh if only things worked that way.



Let's use some decent English first:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel." 32 Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' 34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."

John he clearly says that he would NOT have known him, and especially not as the Son of God, (v31 + v33) if it hadn't been for seeing the Spirit coming down on him (v33). That's what this text says black on white.

And the Spirit came down AFTER the baptism. Or did he come down a few times?

So if John the Baptist only knew who Jesus was, namely the Son of God, AFTER the baptism then how could he have known, according to 'Matthew' that he needed to be baptized by this person (Jesus) BEFORE the baptism?

There is still a huge discrepancy that you can't justify or reconcile.

If you find the exposure of your dissemblance amusing then that’s wonderful.  I certainly enjoy demonstrating how you contort biblical text to manufacture contradictions out of thin air.  It also teaches others to do the same thing.

You better try again then ;)

>> Feed your brain with awesome!
“After your death you will be what you were before your birth.” - Arthur Schopenhauer
"Eternity is very long, especially towards the end." - Woody Allen
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 6:32PM #39
jlb32168
Posts: 13,402
[QUOTE=Daldianus;382792]Let's use some decent English first:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 . . .    John he clearly says that he would NOT have known him. . .[/quote]

No, it does not clearly say he would not have known Christ at all, Daldianus.  That’s your problem – the text doesn’t say that “clearly.”  The statement is qualified and what the Baptist did not know is later told.
Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 11:29PM #40
Brother_Yossarian
Posts: 4,561
Dald:  Seeking answers to his doubt is a sign of faith? That sounds rather like wanting to have your faith confirmed again. Exactly the thing that believers always say isn't necessary if unbelievers ask for a confirmation ... how ironic

You clearly don't understand faith.  Not that you should be expected to, of course.  You're apparently not "wired" with whatever wires are plugged into the minds of the faith-based people.

Faith is a struggle, Dald.  People believe in supernatural things, but they also have times of doubt or uncertainty.  There probably never has been a human being who hasn't doubted their religious beliefs at times.

So John was human.  So the gospel writers were human too.  None of that negates the possibility that Jesus was in fact God's son, that doves did in fact descend at the baptism, or that the voice came out from the sky.  That's all stuff to be taken on faith by Christian believers.  You're not one, and you clearly don't understand the ways of faith. 

Sometimes believers doubt, Dald.  That's something I'm sure you never, ever do.

"In order that nothing may be wanting to the felicity of the blessed spirits in heaven, a perfect view is granted to them of the tortures of the damned."--St. Thomas Aquinas
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