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Switch to Forum Live View ISKCON and Hinduism
6 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2008 - 8:29AM #51
silence_speaks
Posts: 568
Hi jm,
        :) Also, Atheism is not seeing Krishna when he is right before you !

LOL! what else is atheism ?

Love!
Silence
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2008 - 8:23PM #52
HinduGuy
Posts: 373
Funny I say that Atheists will be the first to enter Rama's heaven and Jm8 has the complete opposite view. Both of us are hindus, what a great faith.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2008 - 6:43AM #53
Jm8
Posts: 784
silence,

> What is Atheism ? What is Advaita ? When you were born, you were not born with Atheism or Advaita ! You were in his embrace then... right now, you are in his embrace! Its just not possible to move "away" from krishna!

funny that you're asking me to define atheism and advaita. You should know better than me, don't you think?

You, I and all other children were born into an embrace of maya (Bh.P. 3.31.20: "...Your external energy, called deva-maya, at once captures the newly born child, and immediately false identification, which is the beginning of the cycle of continual birth and death, begins.").

It _is_ possible to move away from Krishna. Read BG 16, etc. It's our consciousness refusing to recognize His existence and superiority over us (= atheism) and difference from us (= advaita) which moves us from Him, word jugglery included.

> Advaitins are not matter conditioned beings!

They may become temporarily liberated by merging into Brahman but acc to Brahma they will become matter conditioned again:

"O lotus-eyed Lord, although nondevotees who accept severe austerities and penances to achieve the highest position may think themselves liberated, their intelligence is impure. They fall down from their position of imagined superiority because they have no regard for Your lotus feet." (Bh.P. 10.2.32)

I have quoted this verse many times but you still can't (or don't want to) understand it. Wonderful.


HinduGuy,

the difference between us is that your view is not supported by guru-sastra-sadhu.


Hope this helps. Hare Krishna

"This Krishna Consciousness is a science to understand what is the difference between a dead body and a living body". (A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Your servant, bh. Jan

http://www.vrindavan-dham.com
http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 3:46PM #54
arjun
Posts: 554

samst wrote:

Arjun:     

>>....why so much time is spent debating how to reach Moksha and the "Ultimate this" or "ultimate that" ..what we should be discussing more is how to find fullfillment and meaning in our material lifes.... >>


Do I see a touch of Ingersoll here?   

""Happiness is the only good. The time to be happy is now. The place to be happy is here. The way to be happy is to make others so. This creed is somewhat short, but is long enough for this life; long enough for this world. If there is another world, when we get there we can make another creed. But this creed certainly will do for this life.""(Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-1899)

You're right ofcourse. Human mind has this tendency to "live" in the past - remembering and revelling in all those goodies enjoyed - AND dream or fantasize the future - in short, perennial pursuit of pleasure and abhorrence of pain! In the process, the "the present" is out of the mind all the time.(JK's)     In my view, the dream/idea of Moksha/Heaven/Salvation is an extension of that perennial pursuit!

The irony or paradox is everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody is willing to die!!!

Love & God Bless.



Hi Samst,

  Yes, I am interested in knowing what Hinduism has to offer to the common man (99.99%) of the population who is not too thrilled with the idea of achieving Moksha in this (or next) lifetime  yet :)

I am glad to see you posting. I though we lost you when transitioning to the new and improved Beliefnet format :)

Arjun

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6 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2008 - 5:08PM #55
Agnes
Posts: 379
I have many questions about ISKON.  I have been studying the religion, their history and their controversies. I  literally had nightmares after reading about the child abuse. 

My question is, how has ISKON changed since the 60's, 70's and 80's and what is unchanged?

Thanks.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 3:15AM #56
samst
Posts: 130
Arjun:

>>Yes, I am interested in knowing what Hinduism has to offer to the common man (99.99%) of the population who is not too thrilled with the idea of achieving Moksha in this (or next) lifetime yet>> 

The idea of achieving moksha/heaven is the creation of religion [not all, though]. This is deeply embedded in the human mind; and benumbs it, to the point of ignoring/forgetting the "PRESENT". Hence, Karl Marx's "Mass Opiate" title to religion!

Now to the question what hinduism has to offer? First, not all branches of hinduism is "moksha/heaven" dependent. Such branches point out the necessity of living the day to day life in harmony with nature, environment etc.[Dharma in short] The Wicca adage - "So long as it does not harm anyone, including yourself, do as you please" - will easily fit into the motto of such branches. So will Buddha's eight-fold path.

Patanjali's Yoga school  makes very little reference to god, let alone moksha/heaven. The branches of hinduism which advocate 'jivanmukta" state, point out the need for attaining "Supreme Perfection", not moksha/heaven.[J Krishnamurti uses the term, "Choiceless Awareness". BG uses "Brahma Nirvan" and "Sthitha Pragyan"; Baha'u'llah uses "Infinite Essence"] Take meditation [Dhyana] for example.  Basically,it has nothing to do with moksha/heaven. Its aim is to "super-focus" the mind, in order to reach that supreme perfection.  Thus, bulk of hinduism is about such "super-focus", not moksha or heaven. "Vyadha Gita" of Mahabharat, for instance tells us how a butcher and an ordinary house-wife, attending to their daily chores with care & attention are spiritually superior to a Tapasvi, with super-natural powers!

Incidentally, all these branches fit into Ingersoll's, "Real religion with me is a thing not of the head, but of the heart; not a theory, not a creed, but a life."

Love & God Bless.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 5:26AM #57
silence_speaks
Posts: 568
Hi Arjun,
           :)

For the Common man, Hinduism says "You are Complete"
For the uncommon man, Hinduism says "You are Complete"
For the animals and the birds: You are Complete
For the stones, rivers, riverbeds, oceans : You are complete
For the stars,planets, solar systems : You are Complete ....

Just That. and one innocent friend asked: "How am i complete? I am incomplete" and the sage laughed: find out who thinks so :)

Love!
Silence
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 5:35AM #58
Jm8
Posts: 784
Agnes,

> I have many questions about ISKON. I have been studying the religion, their history and their controversies. I literally had nightmares after reading about the child abuse.

> My question is, how has ISKON changed since the 60's, 70's and 80's and what is unchanged?

Controversies are an unfortunate result of not following previous acaryas, out of weakness, misunderstanding or a different agenda.

ISKCON is changing every day. Important milestones were 1987 (a reform of a guru system) and second half of 90' when the child abuse was brought up. It was dealt with by stopping most day schools, establishing Child Protection Comittee and its protection measures and paying compensations (Turley case, etc.). This case was opposed by some former gurukula students though since it affected ISKCON as an organization and not the perpetrators themselves. (They were just removed from ISKCON.) Another major change is a continuous growth of a congregation, consisting mainly of ethnic Indians, esp. in GB and USA. You can see issues discussed in ICJ, some online at: http://iskcon.com/icj/contents.html

What is unchanged? Depends which areas of activity you mean. There is still the basic program going on in our centers: japa, public chanting (harinama sankirtana), book distribution, prasada distribution, study of sastras, etc.

If you have a specific questions, I guess the best would be email.


Hope this helps. Hare Krishna

"This Krishna Consciousness is a science to understand what is the difference between a dead body and a living body". (A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Your servant, bh. Jan

http://www.vrindavan-dham.com
http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 5:37AM #59
Jm8
Posts: 784
samst,

> Thus, bulk of hinduism is about such "super-focus", not moksha or heaven.

No, bulk of Vedic followers are Vaishnavas whose super-focus is on the Lord and His service, both in this and the next life in Vaikuntha/Goloka.

> Incidentally, all these branches fit into Ingersoll's, "Real religion with me is a thing not of the head, but of the heart; not a theory, not a creed, but a life."

In order that there would be no room for fanaticism in religion, religion must have heart (transcendent devotion) and head (transcendent knowledge).

"Religion without philosophy is sentiment, or sometimes fanaticism, while philosophy without religion is mental speculation." (A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Bhagavad-gita As It Is, 3.3, purport)


Hope this helps. Hare Krishna

"This Krishna Consciousness is a science to understand what is the difference between a dead body and a living body". (A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Your servant, bh. Jan

http://www.vrindavan-dham.com
http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 11:56AM #60
Agnes
Posts: 379
Thanks Jm8

I tried to email you like you mentioned but there was no email link on your home page.

A.
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