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7 years ago  ::  Mar 18, 2008 - 11:55AM #31
silence_speaks
Posts: 568
Hi jm,
      :)


[QUOTE]
my experience of being conscious of Krishna changed me profoundly and lasts.
And even seeing Krishna in a dream can sometimes be a transforming experience for those who are ready
[/QUOTE]

:) yes, that is definitely beautiful, jm. but the problem is, you forget. Do you get this ? Let me be frank. I too travelled a path similar to yours. Not exactly yours, though. There was a time when I used to simply sit and sing prayer songs to my god every night - 4/5 hours on an average. But tell me if this is your experience too: You are so silent and blissful while praying and having all those experiences. But there are also moments when you lose your composure, you become attached to worldly things ... are we in sync ? do you agree its like this for you also ? Do you still feel troubled by kama, krodha, lobha moha etc , though during those experiences you were not under their control ?


Love!
Silence
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 19, 2008 - 5:32AM #32
Jm8
Posts: 784
silence,

I may temporarily forget but I remember again. That's the point. I'm not posing as a siddha, being just a sadhaka.

You thought you'll become a siddha after a short time. It didn't happen so you gave up and now you think it doesn't work... Well, this is an eternal process (BG 6.37-45), our natural function or characteristic (one of the meanings of 'dharma').


Hope this helps. Hare Krishna

"This Krishna Consciousness is a science to understand what is the difference between a dead body and a living body". (A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Your servant, bh. Jan

http://www.vrindavan-dham.com
http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 19, 2008 - 9:23AM #33
silence_speaks
Posts: 568
Hi jm,
          :)

Thanks for being frank. When one is frank and sincerely genuine, one is really open and ready to see things in the right light. I really appreciate it. Infact I found this to be a common quality amongst all the ISKCON friends I met. Please try to see the point I am making in the following lines : ) I request a little careful study for now ...

Now. You forget and remember. Rememberance is of a memory. Do you see this. You are holding onto a memory, which is in mind and remembering it ... obviously since mind is just a state machine, it can be in one state at a time ... so you forget too! This will continue likewise. unless you go totally beyond mind ... do you see this ? its the nature of your body to grow old and die.. if u try to hold it and stop it from dying ... thats futile - useless. Its the nature of mind to remember and forget ... if u r expecting it to remember always ... it wont work out.

You have to go beyond mind. so much so, that what ever happens in the mind does not affect you. Scriptures speak of this in various ways ... like a movie projected on a movie screen. The screen is not affected by what happens in the movie ... so too you have to go beyond the happenings in the mind ... remembrance or forgetting things should not be able to touch you ... Do you get what I am trying to explain ?

If it is not of the mind, you cannot remember... what is remembered is  a memory. so its of the mind. and u r influenced by what happens in the mind ... so however exotic the experience is, its in the mind and you are influenced by it... so you will be influenced by the kind of thoughts that occur in your mind ... and mind , as i said, is just a state machine ... it jumps from one state to another based on the input ... suddenly as you are walking on the road u see some erotic picture and sensual thoughts occur... you have to become totally detached from what kind of thoughts occur in ... whether sensual or spiritual ... u should become detached from both kind of thoughts of mind ... then you are free ... only then.

Love!
Silence
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2008 - 6:14AM #34
Jm8
Posts: 784
silence,

I guess I already explained this but have no problem to repeat it. What you say applies to material mind and material perceptions. General yogas teach a detachment from matter. But bhakti yoga teaches attachment to spirit, ideally the Lord (BG 8.7, 9.28,34, 12.8) and His spiritual, above-material-mind realm. When we perceive it, it's not on the level of material mind.
Mantras, esp. names of God, are not material sounds. They enter thru the material mind and directly link the jivatma and the Lord. The quality of this link depends on our gunas (BG 2.53) and to reestablish this connection fully, after revealing one's own spiritual form (svarupa), is the goal of bhakti yoga. The remembrance and perception of the Lord will then continue eternally in an unlimitedly enhanced way.


Hope this helps. Hare Krishna

"This Krishna Consciousness is a science to understand what is the difference between a dead body and a living body". (A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Your servant, bh. Jan

http://www.vrindavan-dham.com
http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2008 - 6:17AM #35
Jm8
Posts: 784
silence,

I guess I already explained this but have no problem to repeat it. What you say applies to material mind and material perceptions. General yogas teach a detachment from matter. But bhakti yoga teaches attachment to spirit, ideally the Lord (BG 8.7, 9.28,34, 12.8) and His spiritual, above-material-mind realm. When we perceive it, it's not on the level of material mind.
Mantras, esp. names of God, are not material sounds. They enter thru the material mind and directly link the jivatma and the Lord. The quality of this link depends on our gunas (BG 2.53) and to reestablish this connection fully, after revealing one's own spiritual form (svarupa), is the goal of bhakti yoga. The remembrance and perception of the Lord will then continue eternally in an unlimitedly enhanced way.


Hope this helps. Hare Krishna

"This Krishna Consciousness is a science to understand what is the difference between a dead body and a living body". (A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Your servant, bh. Jan

http://www.vrindavan-dham.com
http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2008 - 7:00AM #36
silence_speaks
Posts: 568
Hi jm,
       :)

Thats clearly understood. But please see this line:

[QUOTE]
The remembrance and perception of the Lord will then continue eternally in an unlimitedly enhanced way.
[/QUOTE]

"Then", but "When" ? Sir, I do not believe this will ever be.  May be I will believe when I meet someone who has realized this. Not someone who believes in this, but someone who actually realized it. Coz materially there is no way to "see" this power of God's name. For example, if my car breaks down and i repeat Krishna nama ... nothing will happen. i will have to see the problem and solve it. until the problem is solved. I agree this is a materialistic, gross example --- but as i said, i will need someone who has gone beyond these material and mental modifications with the help of just the name of Krishna to agree to this :). I have so far not seen a single such person.

Love!
Silence
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2008 - 12:07PM #37
Agnes
Posts: 379
I am confused studying Hinduism and need clarification on this topic  from all of you.   From the little I have learned it appears ISKON follows the Bhatki Yoga path.  Isn't this a legititmate path to self-realization?

Thanks.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2008 - 1:49PM #38
gangajal
Posts: 835
Yes, Bhakti Yoga is a legitimate path.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2008 - 1:57PM #39
arjun
Posts: 554

silence_speaks wrote:

Hi jm,
:)

Thats clearly understood. But please see this line:



"Then", but "When" ? Sir, I do not believe this will ever be. May be I will believe when I meet someone who has realized this. Not someone who believes in this, but someone who actually realized it. Coz materially there is no way to "see" this power of God's name. For example, if my car breaks down and i repeat Krishna nama ... nothing will happen. i will have to see the problem and solve it. until the problem is solved. I agree this is a materialistic, gross example --- but as i said, i will need someone who has gone beyond these material and mental modifications with the help of just the name of Krishna to agree to this :). I have so far not seen a single such person.

Love!
Silence



OK Silence_Speaks, have you, yourself gone beyond "material and mental modifications" ? Why must we believe your method (whatever that may be) is any better ?


What I am a little confused about, as to why so much time is spent debating how to reach Moksha and the "Ultimate this" or "ultimate that" :)..what we should be discussing more is how to find fullfillment and meaning in our material lifes, when for all practical purposes 99.99%% of us will remain bound to the material world. :( ?

Arjun

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 21, 2008 - 1:28AM #40
samst
Posts: 130
Arjun:    

>>....why so much time is spent debating how to reach Moksha and the "Ultimate this" or "ultimate that" ..what we should be discussing more is how to find fullfillment and meaning in our material lifes.... >>


Do I see a touch of Ingersoll here?   

""Happiness is the only good. The time to be happy is now. The place to be happy is here. The way to be happy is to make others so. This creed is somewhat short, but is long enough for this life; long enough for this world. If there is another world, when we get there we can make another creed. But this creed certainly will do for this life.""(Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-1899)

You're right ofcourse. Human mind has this tendency to "live" in the past - remembering and revelling in all those goodies enjoyed - AND dream or fantasize the future - in short, perennial pursuit of pleasure and abhorrence of pain! In the process, the "the present" is out of the mind all the time.(JK's)     In my view, the dream/idea of Moksha/Heaven/Salvation is an extension of that perennial pursuit! 

The irony or paradox is everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody is willing to die!!!

Love & God Bless.
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