Post Reply
Page 5 of 5  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5
Switch to Forum Live View The King & the Teacher
5 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2009 - 12:57PM #41
John_T_Mainer
Posts: 1,658

HinduGuy wrote:

"Well, since my faith is more or less SGism, I doubt many people would come to that board"

I understand where you are coming from, then can we please come up with a new name for this board? Please, some suggestions.


Over my dead body (and the ravens have eaten all who attempted thus far).

I have a closet full of Pagan Pride volunteer T shirts and have been an organizer and volunteer for the local Pagan Pride along with one of my fellow Freeholder Cheryl for some time now. 

I am Pagan, hear me roar.

They may have coined the word as a pejorative, but we pried it from their jaws and rammed a hammer of religious rights and freedoms down their choking throats until they swallowed.

Be damned if I will give that up.

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2009 - 6:46PM #42
CreakyHedgewitch
Posts: 1,244
Well in past lives, I was a Christian. In fact, I’ve been a nun in three different lives and a priest in another. I’ve also studied too much history in this lifetime to see Christianity as a monolithically BIG BAD. Yes I have gone back and studied this faith’s history over the last forty years. Yes, bad stuff happened and there were and are today Christians we would consider morally deficit or corrupt. I can say the same about any religion including Hinduism because human beings have the capacity to behave this way and some do, then and today. I can likewise find different value systems, moral laws and spiritual principles throughout global history along with a great many people then and now insisting that their values, laws and principles are what are real or true or good while ‘insert blanket statements’ are not.

It comes down to perspective. People who use pejorative definitions are not necessarily bigots, however much the dictionaries define them to be for doing so…I have been known to quote dictionaries when useful…nothing wrong with doing so as long as one realises these are just etymological snapshots.  There is a well-known principle at least amongst writers who create characters. The best and most effective villains simply don’t believe that he or she is bad. That is one of the main challenges in creating any villain because you as the writer have already passed judgement. Based on your value system(s)– society’s, history’s, community’s, family’s, individual’s – the writer has already decided that his/her villain=bad. Only….if you write any villian that way, that character instantly becomes ineffective and mediocre -  the blanket statement or stereotypical BIG BAD.  Why? Because that character is a person who believes that he or she is the hero of the story, the one with the white hat, the one doing whatever for the right reasons at the right time. As a writer, you not only have to accept that when writing from the villian's viewpoint, you have to stop trying to control the reader(s) and/or the story itself. It isn't you the writer who determines who the villians or heroes are and what the story ultimately means, it is the reader(s). The true mark of a great villain is if the reader not only sympathises with but is able to and willing to put  themselves into the villian's place. Certainly for those authors from the 16th to 19th centuries who invented much of the mythological history used today for modern Paganism, it is pretty obvious what they considered to be the villain. Obvious because these writers were engaged in a deliberate academic, political and social revolt against Catholicism so naturally they vilified the Church as much as possible.  Just as those in the 19th century who defined paganism as the pastoral idyllic harmony of nature, religion and humankind were defining non-Christians as the heroes. Christianity therefore became the logical candidate to take on the role of the BIG BAD villain. Endless examples of this principle at work, historically and today.

Here is a challenge for you, Hindu-guy. Take just one instance of that King religion history you so often vilify in your posts and interpret it strictly from the viewpoint that the Christians involved were in fact the true heroes. If you can truly do so, then you may gain an understanding of why the Christians might or would consider themselves to be the good guys within such a context. You may then understand why your 'villian=King Religion' as variously described in blanket statements comes across as the stereotypical monolithic villian. You might even begin to appreciate why someone using the term paganism in a pejorative way may not in all instances even be seen as being a bigot.

This board like the other Paganism boards in this forum was created by modern Pagans as a place for self-identifying living Pagans or Neo-Pagans to come, meet, discuss etc. I like others here have no intention of giving up self-identifying as a Pagan or as a Neo-Pagan depending on whom I am talking to. Like Witch, another honorific that I have also self-identified with for a quarter of a century, I don’t own these words. I don’t have a copyright to either. When a friend says in my presence, ‘I’m being such a witch today’ because she is a really bad mood, I don’t correct her or take it personally. It isn’t about ME being a Witch, it is about her using a valid and historically familiar definition of that word. In other words, I take ME out of the picture because the mere act of hearing that term used that way does NOT put me being a Witch in the center of HER universe. I understand that complaint for what it is. So when I meet someone who defines paganism as idol-worshipping barbarians or those involved with Satan, I understand that their use of paganism isn’t about ME being a Pagan. They are using a definition that is considered valid within the context of THEIR faith and lives. Of course, they have also inadvertently told me a great deal of useful information about themselves by using that particular definition but that is another matter.

So while I appreciate that you feel very passionate about this subject and your motivation is based on what you believe to be a benefit to others, whether anyone else uses the term Pagan or not simply isn’t about YOU getting anything done. Actually it isn’t about YOU at all. I doubt anyone here is going to willingly step into YOUR universe where such a simplistic expectation about the pejorative usage of paganism is valid. Perhaps you might want to consider instead doing the same kind of homework that will enables self-identified Pagans to so readily adapt to the rich diversity of constantly changing definitions/contexts.

C.H.
No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2009 - 8:57PM #43
HinduGuy
Posts: 373
"while I appreciate that you feel very passionate about this subject and your motivation is based on what you believe to be a benefit to others"

yes that is what the motivation was basically, time and again I have posted that as a Hindu I would also fall into the definition of pagan and simply feel that using this word keeps giving bigots a cover. There was no intention of trying to hurt anyone. Rest of your post got a bit nasty and that's not right. No need to make this personal, I gather you didn't like my idea but please don't shut down ideas just because you don't agree with them.

"Here is a challenge for you, Hindu-guy. Take just one instance of that King religion history you so often vilify in your posts and interpret it strictly from the viewpoint that the Christians involved were in fact the true heroes. If you can truly do so, then you may gain an understanding of why the Christians might or would consider themselves to be the good guys within such a context"

Great why don't I look at things from Hitler's viewpoint next, maybe he is just misunderstood.

The point is that most religions arose from man's thoughts, no divine inspiration here. People living thousands of years ago, coming up with ideas trying to makes sense of the world around them. Hence you have the earth at the center of the universe. A male God since females were considered weak. There are simple explanations to the concept of God. But some religions go too far. Killing and abusing those who disagreed. Just disagreeing with people who were mocking people unlike them, doesn't matter if they lived thousands of years ago, they were still just people.
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2009 - 9:05PM #44
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496
And we have hit Godwin's Law.  This thread has just been rendered pointless.
Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2009 - 10:00PM #45
John_T_Mainer
Posts: 1,658

HinduGuy wrote:

"while I appreciate that you feel very passionate about this subject and your motivation is based on what you believe to be a benefit to others"

yes that is what the motivation was basically, time and again I have posted that as a Hindu I would also fall into the definition of pagan and simply feel that using this word keeps giving bigots a cover. There was no intention of trying to hurt anyone. Rest of your post got a bit nasty and that's not right. No need to make this personal, I gather you didn't like my idea but please don't shut down ideas just because you don't agree with them.

"Here is a challenge for you, Hindu-guy. Take just one instance of that King religion history you so often vilify in your posts and interpret it strictly from the viewpoint that the Christians involved were in fact the true heroes. If you can truly do so, then you may gain an understanding of why the Christians might or would consider themselves to be the good guys within such a context"

Great why don't I look at things from Hitler's viewpoint next, maybe he is just misunderstood.

The point is that most religions arose from man's thoughts, no divine inspiration here. People living thousands of years ago, coming up with ideas trying to makes sense of the world around them. Hence you have the earth at the center of the universe. A male God since females were considered weak. There are simple explanations to the concept of God. But some religions go too far. Killing and abusing those who disagreed. Just disagreeing with people who were mocking people unlike them, doesn't matter if they lived thousands of years ago, they were still just people.


You could try to look at it from the point of view of the German people in a destitute nation being systematically beggared by the nations who inflicted a peace so deeply humiliating that any insanity seemed reasonable, who used African sepoys as occupation troops to enforce this humiliation of the Germans to make any rise of anger quite possibly racially slanted since the African sepoys were used by French and Belgian occupation forces to humiliate the Germans and underscore German inferiority.

There is a reason the Marshal Plan rebuilt West Germany and provided self government and self-respect for the defeated Germans.  It turns out people did look at things from the German perspective after WWII and decided not to inflict the losses of a whole generation of half the worlds young men, and untold women and children, just to get a little payback.

Perhaps you should do for real what you suggest as a joke.  Perhaps you might learn something.  It only hurts at first.

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 5 of 5  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook