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Switch to Forum Live View Jim's good intentions
6 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 7:37AM #21
compx2
Posts: 426
" the issue of you ignoring my answers."

I must have missed it.  Why are you quoting others criticising the Baha'i Faith?

--Kent
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 7:58AM #22
avoran
Posts: 121
[Are you saying that you think Jim thinks that I am not treating some people with love and respect?]
No, I don't think it has anything to do with you personally at all. This is all about past discussions on other forums. The reason this "old news" was brought up at all (as I understand it) is because there seem to be lessons for the future.

[But then this is hearsay and backbiting, isn't it?]
No, it's common knowledge to anybody who thoroughly searches the internet for 'Baha'i'.

[Are you suggesting that we can do something now to right past wrongs done by others to still others?]
No. But we can learn from their mistakes.

[I think it is just as painful and discouraging to see some people use selected words of others to stir up animosity and conflict when nothing is likely to be accomplished...]
I can see why it might be painful and discouraging. :( But not everyone agrees that "nothing is likely to be accomplished". There is a concept that I think originated with M. Scott Peck about stages of community building: we have to go through painful stages to get from false (pretended) unity to true unity. Closer to home, in my understanding the Baha'i community is important precisely because it isn't easy. Tests = growth. In my opinion, we all need to learn to do a better job of being frank and honest while at the same time being sensitive to other people. Of course that applies all around the table, not just to Baha'is. But as Baha'is we should (to my mind) feel especially committed to this goal, since the Writings say as much.

[If what you and Jim want is for me to be courteous, well, you can ask, you can treat me the way you would want to be treated, you can entreat me to follow the precepts of the Faith I love, but other than that you cannot control me, just as I cannot control anyone else.]
Of course. That's absolutely true. :)

[He thinks Baha'is harbor sectarian hatred against non-Baha'is?]
What I think he thinks, and what I think too, is that some Baha'is are too ready to jump to conclusions and say harsh things about other people (other Baha'is or non-Baha'is) when they feel that the Faith is under attack. Which shouldn't be very surprising: Baha'is are people, too, after all, not angels. At least, not most of them. But we can keep trying to fly higher. :)
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 8:22AM #23
Jim46
Posts: 289
Kent, I've told you that I wasn't trying to use other people's words to say what I think. I wasn't doing it to stir up animosity and conflict.

Do you think I'm lying about that? I won't respond to any more of your posts until you answer that question. Do you think I've been lying about my reasons for what I've been doing?

Jim
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 8:36AM #24
compx2
Posts: 426
Hi Avoran, I hope Jim appreciates all you do on his behalf.

'No, I don't think it has anything to do with you personally at all.'

Then why won't he answer my clear questions about his behavior?  It seems to me he just doesn't want to talk about what he is doing in a clear fashion.  Apparently, he would rather you do it for him.  Do you have any thoughts about why that would be?

"The reason this "old news" was brought up at all (as I understand it) is because there seem to be lessons for the future."

So you think he quotes people criticising the Baha'i Faith as an experiment, to see what might happen if old disputes are re-warmed and brought to the fore-front.

Well, I think that is despicable.  If that is what he is doing he is picking at wounds, trying to see what is under the scabs to see if they will heal faster if they are re-opened.

"No, it's common knowledge to anybody who thoroughly searches the internet for 'Baha'i'."

It is common knowledge that these people he quotes have issues against the Baha'i Faith, that there are few if any Baha'is who identify themselves as such engaged in on-going tit-for-tat disputes.  That those who openly criticise the Faith (except of Jim) do so as non-Baha'is and those who treat others to insults and bad language are not Baha'is (except, again, Jim who does so quoting others).

" But we can learn from their mistakes."

Apparently we can, except for Jim, who is not learning if he is doing what you think he is doing.

"( But not everyone agrees that "nothing is likely to be accomplished".

What is likely to be accomplished?

".... we have to go through painful stages to get from false (pretended) unity to true unity."

Certainly, but that doesn't mean we have to go through experiments by holier than thou (or just cowardly) Baha'is who just want to find out if we have learned to courteous from past disputes (if your interpretation of Jim's actions is correct).

"Closer to home, in my understanding the Baha'i community is important precisely because it isn't easy."

No community is easy.  It is easier to just sit in your house in front of a computer and pretend you want unity without having to actually have any unity with others.

"Tests = growth."

Who gets to introduce those tests?  I wonder how Baha'is would respond to robbery in their community, or racism, or other disasters.

"In my opinion, we all need to learn to do a better job of being frank and honest while at the same time being sensitive to other people."

We could also learn to be fair, generous and grateful, worthy of trust, bright and friendly, letting deeds be our adorning, distinguished in loving humanity.  Want me to go on?

"Of course that applies all around the table, not just to Baha'is."

So maybe we should follow Jim's example and go to Jewish areas and talk abouth the Holocaust to find out if they have learned anything.

"But as Baha'is we should (to my mind) feel especially committed to this goal, since the Writings say as much."

The Writings are for personal growth, urging each of us to do our part toward making the world united.  It is personal, and, in my opinion, experimenting with other people's emotions is not a good way to create unity, if that is what Jim was doing.

"What I think he thinks, and what I think too, is that some Baha'is are too ready to jump to conclusions and say harsh things about other people (other Baha'is or non-Baha'is) when they feel that the Faith is under attack."

Do you think you can do anything about that?

"Baha'is are people, too, after all, not angels."

So maybe Jim should be experimenting with people in general instead of just Baha'is. 

--Kent
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 8:37AM #25
compx2
Posts: 426
"Do you think I'm lying about that?"

How could I possibly know if you are lying if you won't talk to me?

--Kent
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 8:43AM #26
compx2
Posts: 426
If you are doing what you praise Avoran for saying you are doing then you are not lying, but it is dispicable.  --Kent
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 9:19AM #27
avoran
Posts: 121
Kent, have you read "Portals to Freedom" by Howard Colby Ives? It's one of my favourite Baha'i books - in fact probably the favourite, that and Roger White's poetry. I thought of it now because of some of the stories there about `Abdu'l-Baha.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 9:47AM #28
compx2
Posts: 426
Not from cover to cover.  I usually concentrate on Baha'u'llah's Writings.  Right now my favorite is Compilations
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 9:49AM #29
compx2
Posts: 426
Compilation of Compilations vII, another forum brought my attention to it:

2050. Be thou of the people of hell-fire, but be not a hypocrite.

Be thou an unbeliever, but be not a plotter.

Make thy home in taverns, but tread not the path of the mischief-maker.

Fear thou God, but not the priest.

Give to the executioner thy head, but not thy heart.

Let thine abode be under the stone, but seek not the shelter of the cleric.

Thus doth the Holy Reed intone its melodies, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its song, so that He may infuse life eternal into the mortal frames of men, impart to the temples of dust the essence of the Holy Spirit and the heavenly Light, and draw the transient world, through the potency of a single word, unto the Everlasting Kingdom.

(From a Tablet - translated from the Persian)
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2008 - 6:54AM #30
Jim46
Posts: 289
avoran, that is a wonderful, wonderful response to what I've been doing, and a wonderful confirmation that it might do some good.

Jim
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