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6 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2008 - 7:24AM #1
compx2
Posts: 426
Hi Jim.  I have taken quotes from your personal observations.  You repeated earlier today:

"I say what I mean. I mean what I say."

What interests me is what good is likely to come from what you are doing here.  Please don't think this is an attack, any more than what you are doing here to the Baha'i community is an attack.  I am examining the issues as you present them with an eye toward what is likely to happen next.

"The person I talked to exressed regret over this "division" between km and me, then started questioning me about what I did to provoke it. Then he tried to change the subject to my questionable activities on the Internet.

"You see what's happening here.

"I can feel the temptation to jump."

I certainly understand the feeling of standing up against the powers that be.  I understand having my motives questioned when I believe, with all my heart, that what I am doing is a good thing.  It seems to me that you are saying here those are your feelings at this time.  I cannot discount your feelings, but I would like you to consider what you are feeling rationally.  If it would help I could provide quotes from the Writings that tell us we should be rational and not act on feelings without examining them rationally.

A person questioned you about what you did to provoke someone else's behavior.  Then he tried to change the subject.  Do either of those things matter at all?  Is there a symptom here that this person was exhibiting that you are generalizing to others?  To me?  If not, then what purpose does it server to mention this event?  If so, then is your generalization rational?

"My story might help some people see them as human beings, and that might help reduce the effects of the campaigns."

First of all, I resent the implication that I might not see "them" as human beings.  Secondly, what "campaigns"?  If you have shown that there is some sort of campaign, then I missed it.

"Dedicated to the Gang of Four"

I assume you are talking about the Cultural Revolution in China in the 1960's, not the the band or GoF software.  If I am right, then I can further assume that you admire their working from within the government of China to institute cultural change.  If that is true as well, then I submit that you are wrong to go about liberalizing the Baha'i Faith by championing wackos.  You will be lumped with them, and you should be, because if that is what you do, then that is what you are.

The Gang of Four fomented cultural change by supporting liberalization and dropping support for taboos.  Are you sure you want to champion anger and irrational accusation as the media for Baha'i dialog?  As I have said to you before, we need to teach by example.

"I've tried to resist the temptation to color the story with my own views about the issues involved."

That should not mean that you do not make points, and only selectively list controversial events.  That itself colors the dialog.

"When other people's interests and ideas seem contrary to mine, I feel a responsibility to try to see things their way, and see the good in what they do."

"The more I feel alienated from people, the more I try to feel closer to them."

Those two statements say more about your personal emotional makeup than anything that might be helpful in dealing with communication issues with those who insist on anger as their method of making a point.

"I was moved and touched by something he wrote that I saw as a sign of devotion to the Covenant."

You would be well served in talking about that devotion, explaining it, imparting that information to us.

"I was interested in her because I had read something she had written in response to questions about her involvement in the campaign of internal opposition."

What campaign of internal opposition?

"...from a moral and spiritual point of view I consider them castaways."

Many of us don't.  Is it your purpose to change our minds about those who have angrily left and denounced the Baha'i Faith?  That it is not their choice, but rather we "provoked" it?  Much as you "provoked" the division between km and yourself?  Do you see my point, that you are reading into my intentions who you think I am.  And I resent that.

"Put herself in the line of fire when she sees people shooting at them from the boat."

You are welcomed to put yourself in the line of fire, but I think you should be careful about recommending that others put themselves in danger.  We can take Baha'u'llah's advice, interpret His words as we see fit, but if we start doing things because you tell us to that is precisely what you are depreciating.  It seems to me we are allowed to interpret the Baha'i Writings as we see fit, and should not take your word for it that we should put ourselves in harms way for someone who shows us unmitigated anger.

On the one hand you say: "I see all of the people featured in my story campaigning against the House of Justice, and I'm not approving of it at all."

Then on the other you say: "That was when I started searching for ways to counteract defamation campaigns."

Do you think Baha'is should support those who campaign against the Universal House of Justice?  That you should support, aid, and provide comfort and means to those who campaign against the Universal House of Justice?  If so, Why?

"I'm writing about them precisely because of the way they've been disparaged."

Is their disparagement my doing?  A concerted campaign?  Headed by whom?  Those who support the institutions these people disparage with their unrelenting anger?

"it might be of interest to some other people besides me"

If you are looking for popular interest you could try pornography.   Pulp fiction is popularly read as well.  And yellow journalism.

"I rarely read their posts because they seemed so poisonous to me, but I read a few now and then."

You say this about a person you want us to read, and you quote saying horrible things about Baha'is.  Now why was that again?

"I saw some behavior that appalled me in some of the Talisman liberals and in some people I saw contending with them"

I see appalling behavior all the time.  What good would it do for me to chronicle it for you?

"I gradually became aware that in years past I had helped create a nightmare for some of our members. I began considering ways to help put an end to it. I've always had a passionate interest in working with people I see as downtrodden and marginalized, no matter how wrong, blamable and disagreeable they seem to me. The only threat I saw to the Faith was from misbehavior in the name of the Covenant and the House of Justice As long as the most popular response I see among Baha'is to what I'm doing with them is to depreciate it, I will continue to see them as castaways."

I am sorry for you.  But I submit that just because someone is dissatisfied, it is not your fault.  If someone is angry with you that, also, is not your fault.  If someone makes you feel anxious or small it is time to examine what you are doing and why. 

If someone spews hot anger in your face you should turn from them, it is your choice if you walk away or run away, but those are the only two reasonable choices.

And issue is not anger, Jim.  If the person says something about examining what you are saying it is not a conspiricy or depricating your thoughts.  It calls for a response, hopefully a thoughtful one.

--Kent
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2008 - 8:44AM #2
Jim46
Posts: 289
Kent, I'm working on a response to this, but it will take some time.

Jim
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2008 - 9:24AM #3
compx2
Posts: 426
Thanks!  And you didn't ask, but we talked about your quest and Momen's recent work on the disenfranchised at Feast last night.  --Kent
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2008 - 9:33AM #4
maidenhair_leaf
Posts: 540
"anything that might be helpful in dealing with communication issues with those who insist on anger as their method of making a point."

kent

that statement just shows me that you don't know much about anger and it manafestations...some people have REAL VALID reasons for expressing anger. anger is not necessarily "bad or wrong"
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2008 - 9:46AM #5
Jim46
Posts: 289
[QUOTE=compx2;326578]I certainly understand the feeling of standing up against the powers that be.



Is that what this looks like to you? In order to respond to that, I would need to know what powers you think I'm standing up to, and where you got that idea.

I understand having my motives questioned when I believe, with all my heart, that what I am doing is a good thing. It seems to me that you are saying here those are your feelings at this time.



I can see how it might look that way, but no, those were not my feelings when I wrote that.

I cannot discount your feelings, but I would like you to consider what you are feeling rationally.



I do, all the time.

First of all, I resent the implication that I might not see "them" as human beings.



I'll try to find a better way to say what I'm trying to say.

"Dedicated to the Gang of Four"

I assume you are talking about the Cultural Revolution in China in the 1960's, not the the band or GoF software.



Oh no! I had forgotten all about that!

This is embarrassing! I need to learn to Google, before I use an expression like that.

No, I'm not talking about either of those.

If that is true as well, then I submit that you are wrong to go about liberalizing the Baha'i Faith by championing wackos.  You will be lumped with them . . .



Well, I do hope that people who lump other people together, will lump me in with our castaways.

What campaign of internal opposition?



The one the House of Justice wrote about in its message of 7 April 1999 to all National Spiritual Assemblies.

Do you see my point, that you are reading into my intentions who you think I am.



All I've read into your intentions so far is that you are posting your ideas, and asking questions about things you don't understand.

Jim

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6 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2008 - 9:48AM #6
compx2
Posts: 426
Let nothing grieve thee, and be thou angered at none. It behoveth thee to be content with the Will of God, and a true and loving and trusted friend to all the peoples of the earth, without any exceptions whatever. (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 25)

Sanctify your ears from the idle talk of them that are the symbols of denial and the exponents of violence and anger. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 72)

Well is it with the king who keepeth a tight hold on the reins of his passion, restraineth his anger and preferreth justice and fairness to injustice and tyranny.     (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 65)

Anger, passion, ignorance, prejudice, greed, envy, covetousness, jealousy and suspicion prevent man from ascending to the realms of holiness, imprisoning him in the claws of self and the cage of egotism. (Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 546)

Yield not to grief and sorrow: they cause the greatest misery. Jealousy consumeth the body and anger doth burn the liver: avoid these two as you would a lion.     (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 460)








that statement just shows me that you don't know much about anger and it manafestations...some people have REAL VALID reasons for expressing anger. anger is not necessarily "bad or wrong"[/QUOTE]
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2008 - 9:58AM #7
compx2
Posts: 426
" In order to respond to that, I would need to know what powers you think I'm standing up to, and where you got that idea."

I was responding to your statement that I quoted that ended in you saying you felt a temptation to jump.  It began with someone questioning you.  I was talking about your feelings that gave you that temptation, and tying it to the reason you are writing this.  Was that feeling related to your quest?  If not, why did you bring it up?

"I'll try to find a better way to say what I'm trying to say."

Okay.

"The one the House of Justice wrote about in its message of 7 April 1999 to all National Spiritual Assemblies."

The campaign you are talking about "promotes a kind of interpretive authority which those behind it attribute to the views of persons technically trained in Middle East studies".  Are you sure your comments about a campaign are exclusively about this campaign?

"All I've read into your intentions so far is that you are posting your ideas, and asking questions about things you don't understand."

I would be happier if you answered the questions I ask.

--Kent
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2008 - 10:00AM #8
maidenhair_leaf
Posts: 540
If he exercises his anger and wrath against the bloodthirsty tyrants who are like ferocious beasts, it is very praiseworthy; but if he does not use these qualities in a right way, they are blameworthy.  321

    (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 320)

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&defl= … n&ct=title
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2008 - 10:44AM #9
compx2
Posts: 426
"I see all of the people featured in my story campaigning against the House of Justice, and I'm not approving of it at all."

You answering my concerns about the above statement of yours:

"Well, I do hope that people who lump other people together, will lump me in with our castaways."

You prefer to be associated with those who campaign against the Universal House of Justice, even though you don't agree with such a campaign?

--Kent
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 02, 2008 - 10:49AM #10
Jim46
Posts: 289
[QUOTE=compx2;326742]" In order to respond to that, I would need to know what powers you think I'm standing up to, and where you got that idea."

I was responding to your statement that I quoted that ended in you saying you felt a temptation to jump.  It began with someone questioning you.  I was talking about your feelings that gave you that temptation, and tying it to the reason you are writing this.  Was that feeling related to your quest?  If not, why did you bring it up?[/QUOTE]

I was talking to Rod. I'm not sure what you mean by "your quest." If you mean my work with Taliman liberals, yes, it was related.

I still need to know what powers you're talking about. Have you imagined that I'm standing up against Baha'i institutions? If so, then no. In fact, one of the most frustrating things for me, with some people who depreciate and oppose what I do, is their disregard for the interests and guidance of the House of Justice.

Jim
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