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6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 9:53AM #31
Wiscidea
Posts: 2,319

sacrificialgoddess wrote:

... Actually a citizen of the Roman Empire who worshipped Minerva was a Roman.  There was no religion called "Pagan."  There never has been a religion called "Pagan."    Pagan is an Umbrella Term. ...  there is no need for the neo.  Whether you use it or not, doesn't matter.  The terms are interchangeable.  Neo changes nothing in the meaning of the word.


I think sacrificialgoddess raises a very interesting point. This did not occur to me before reading this. Thank you for mentioning it.

I'll return to observing this thread.

Peace

"Some people claim that there's a woman to blame. But I know it's my own damn fault."

Jimmy Buffet (Margaritaville)
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 6:34PM #32
Bran th' Blessed
Posts: 34

sacrificialgoddess wrote:

No.  Actually a citizen of the Roman Empire who worshipped Minerva was a Roman.  There was no religion called "Pagan."  There never has been a religion called "Pagan."    Pagan is an Umbrella Term.  (Take a drink, Drom)  This is why I say that there is no need for the neo.  Whether you use it or not, doesn't matter.  The terms are interchangeable.  Neo changes nothing in the meaning of the word.


You boggle the mind!  You absolutely boggle the mind!  Has there ever been anyone less able to grasp the simple gist of a statement and jump instead to the most outlandish interpretation of its meaning?  You cannot be so incapable of understanding, so I assume you are simply deriding my comments for the pleasure of deriding them.  I completely knew everything you have said before you said it.  Of course a Roman is a Roman.  Of course Pagan was not the name of the religion of Minerva, but of course it is the umbrella term we use for such religions as that which worshipped Minerva in Roman times.

"Neo" DOES matter.  NeoPlatonists are those later philosophers who revived the teachings of Plato in one form or another.  NeoNazis are those pea-brained skinheads who revived the worst aspects of the German National Socialist Party.  NeoPagans are those of us who since the 20th century have been reviving old pagan styles (umbrella term) of religion.  Because we try to revive old dead pagan religions, we are pagans, and it is fine if we choose to call ourselves that.  But if we choose to call ourselves NeoPagans to distinguish ourselves from the practices of old paganism now considered barbaric by our civilization, then we may reasonably do so.

Bran th' Blessed

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 6:47PM #33
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

Bran th' Blessed wrote:

You boggle the mind!  You absolutely boggle the mind!  Has there ever been anyone less able to grasp the simple gist of a statement and jump instead to the most outlandish interpretation of its meaning?  You cannot be so incapable of understanding, so I assume you are simply deriding my comments for the pleasure of deriding them.  I completely knew everything you have said before you said it.  Of course a Roman is a Roman.  Of course Pagan was not the name of the religion of Minerva, but of course it is the umbrella term we use for such religions as that which worshipped Minerva in Roman times.

"Neo" DOES matter.  NeoPlatonists are those later philosophers who revived the teachings of Plato in one form or another.  NeoNazis are those pea-brained skinheads who revived the worst aspects of the German National Socialist Party.  NeoPagans are those of us who since the 20th century have been reviving old pagan styles (umbrella term) of religion.  Because we try to revive old dead pagan religions, we are pagans, and it is fine if we choose to call ourselves that.  But if we choose to call ourselves NeoPagans to distinguish ourselves from the practices of old paganism now considered barbaric by our civilization, then we may reasonably do so.

Bran th' Blessed


We haven't revived anything.  Some have reconstructed, but that is why we call them Reconstructionists.

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 8:03PM #34
John_T_Mainer
Posts: 1,658

Bran th' Blessed wrote:

You boggle the mind!  You absolutely boggle the mind!  Has there ever been anyone less able to grasp the simple gist of a statement and jump instead to the most outlandish interpretation of its meaning?  You cannot be so incapable of understanding, so I assume you are simply deriding my comments for the pleasure of deriding them.  I completely knew everything you have said before you said it.  Of course a Roman is a Roman.  Of course Pagan was not the name of the religion of Minerva, but of course it is the umbrella term we use for such religions as that which worshipped Minerva in Roman times.

"Neo" DOES matter.  NeoPlatonists are those later philosophers who revived the teachings of Plato in one form or another.  NeoNazis are those pea-brained skinheads who revived the worst aspects of the German National Socialist Party.  NeoPagans are those of us who since the 20th century have been reviving old pagan styles (umbrella term) of religion.  Because we try to revive old dead pagan religions, we are pagans, and it is fine if we choose to call ourselves that.  But if we choose to call ourselves NeoPagans to distinguish ourselves from the practices of old paganism now considered barbaric by our civilization, then we may reasonably do so.

Bran th' Blessed


Platonics are one school of thought, and with that narrow definition can be adequately defined.  Neo Platonists are those later philosophers who based their theories on Platonic ideals, but included other elements foreign to Platos' writings.

Pagan is not one school of thought, and contains such a plethora of faiths that its definition is so broad as to include a number of current faiths. Without a narrow definition of Pagan, how are you going to draw the line for Neo?  At any given time, by any given people, almost everything you can think of has been included in Paganism.  What would you classify as Neo given that we cannot really think of much at all that doesn't fall under the Pagan umbrella someplace?

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 8:17PM #35
CreakyHedgewitch
Posts: 1,244
.....in other words, if you choose to use the term Neo-, then you are comparing or linking whatever is on the other side of the dash to something you consider to be older.

If you are not comparing or linking being Pagan today to something you consider to be older, then why bother?

That is why either term might be more appropriate or interchangeable or synonymous or in opposition - depending on whomever and whatever is being referenced.

Hence I (despite the rolling of eyes from some members) prefer to use Neo-/Paganism or Neo-/Pagan(s). That leaves it up to the person(s) involved to decide within whatever situation is at hand what is more appropriate.

C.H.
No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 10:49PM #36
Bran th' Blessed
Posts: 34

John_T_Mainer wrote:

Platonics are one school of thought, and with that narrow definition can be adequately defined.  Neo Platonists are those later philosophers who based their theories on Platonic ideals, but included other elements foreign to Platos' writings.

Pagan is not one school of thought, and contains such a plethora of faiths that its definition is so broad as to include a number of current faiths. Without a narrow definition of Pagan, how are you going to draw the line for Neo?  At any given time, by any given people, almost everything you can think of has been included in Paganism.  What would you classify as Neo given that we cannot really think of much at all that doesn't fall under the Pagan umbrella someplace?


And that, John is what I was saying...that Pagan is a broader term (as girl is a broader term than maiden).  All NeoPagans are Pagans, but not all Pagans are NeoPagans.  Hinduism is often considered a Pagan religion (forgive me, Hinduguy!).  But it is not considered a NeoPagan religion.  NeoPagan is the term coined by Oberon Zell-Ravenheart when he was a younger Tim Zell, the publisher of Green Egg Magazine.  NeoPagans are a subsection of Pagans, specifically they are new pagans, the kinds of wiccan and reconstructionist pagan religions that have flourished especially since the last half of the 20th century.  I don't know if heathens and Asatru consider their religion a continuation of the ancient faith or a reconstruction.  Either way, we see them as a vibrant part of today's growing pagan community and might thus call them NeoPagans.  Thus, religions as diverse as Asatru, the Church of All Worlds, Gardnerian Wicca, Dianic Wicca, Pagan Way, Circle Sanctuary, Arn Driocht Fein and Cymry Wicca are all members of both groups, NeoPagans (maidens) and Pagans (girls)...if I may refer to my original comparison.

Bran th' Blessed

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 8:03PM #37
John_T_Mainer
Posts: 1,658

Bran th' Blessed wrote:

You boggle the mind!  You absolutely boggle the mind!  Has there ever been anyone less able to grasp the simple gist of a statement and jump instead to the most outlandish interpretation of its meaning?  You cannot be so incapable of understanding, so I assume you are simply deriding my comments for the pleasure of deriding them.  I completely knew everything you have said before you said it.  Of course a Roman is a Roman.  Of course Pagan was not the name of the religion of Minerva, but of course it is the umbrella term we use for such religions as that which worshipped Minerva in Roman times.

"Neo" DOES matter.  NeoPlatonists are those later philosophers who revived the teachings of Plato in one form or another.  NeoNazis are those pea-brained skinheads who revived the worst aspects of the German National Socialist Party.  NeoPagans are those of us who since the 20th century have been reviving old pagan styles (umbrella term) of religion.  Because we try to revive old dead pagan religions, we are pagans, and it is fine if we choose to call ourselves that.  But if we choose to call ourselves NeoPagans to distinguish ourselves from the practices of old paganism now considered barbaric by our civilization, then we may reasonably do so.

Bran th' Blessed


Platonics are one school of thought, and with that narrow definition can be adequately defined.  Neo Platonists are those later philosophers who based their theories on Platonic ideals, but included other elements foreign to Platos' writings.

Pagan is not one school of thought, and contains such a plethora of faiths that its definition is so broad as to include a number of current faiths. Without a narrow definition of Pagan, how are you going to draw the line for Neo?  At any given time, by any given people, almost everything you can think of has been included in Paganism.  What would you classify as Neo given that we cannot really think of much at all that doesn't fall under the Pagan umbrella someplace?

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 8:17PM #38
CreakyHedgewitch
Posts: 1,244
.....in other words, if you choose to use the term Neo-, then you are comparing or linking whatever is on the other side of the dash to something you consider to be older.

If you are not comparing or linking being Pagan today to something you consider to be older, then why bother?

That is why either term might be more appropriate or interchangeable or synonymous or in opposition - depending on whomever and whatever is being referenced.

Hence I (despite the rolling of eyes from some members) prefer to use Neo-/Paganism or Neo-/Pagan(s). That leaves it up to the person(s) involved to decide within whatever situation is at hand what is more appropriate.

C.H.
No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 10:49PM #39
Bran th' Blessed
Posts: 34

John_T_Mainer wrote:

Platonics are one school of thought, and with that narrow definition can be adequately defined.  Neo Platonists are those later philosophers who based their theories on Platonic ideals, but included other elements foreign to Platos' writings.

Pagan is not one school of thought, and contains such a plethora of faiths that its definition is so broad as to include a number of current faiths. Without a narrow definition of Pagan, how are you going to draw the line for Neo?  At any given time, by any given people, almost everything you can think of has been included in Paganism.  What would you classify as Neo given that we cannot really think of much at all that doesn't fall under the Pagan umbrella someplace?


And that, John is what I was saying...that Pagan is a broader term (as girl is a broader term than maiden).  All NeoPagans are Pagans, but not all Pagans are NeoPagans.  Hinduism is often considered a Pagan religion (forgive me, Hinduguy!).  But it is not considered a NeoPagan religion.  NeoPagan is the term coined by Oberon Zell-Ravenheart when he was a younger Tim Zell, the publisher of Green Egg Magazine.  NeoPagans are a subsection of Pagans, specifically they are new pagans, the kinds of wiccan and reconstructionist pagan religions that have flourished especially since the last half of the 20th century.  I don't know if heathens and Asatru consider their religion a continuation of the ancient faith or a reconstruction.  Either way, we see them as a vibrant part of today's growing pagan community and might thus call them NeoPagans.  Thus, religions as diverse as Asatru, the Church of All Worlds, Gardnerian Wicca, Dianic Wicca, Pagan Way, Circle Sanctuary, Arn Driocht Fein and Cymry Wicca are all members of both groups, NeoPagans (maidens) and Pagans (girls)...if I may refer to my original comparison.

Bran th' Blessed

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2009 - 6:44PM #40
Dromahair
Posts: 559
Nope, you're still not getting it.  Follow along...,


Pagan = Almost anything non-abrahamic that self identifies as such.

NeoPagan = Almost anything non-abrahamic that self identifies as such.

(Pagan = NeoPagan)   and   (NeoPagan = Pagan)  as opposed to  (girl + virginity = maiden)


The 'Neo' is a misguided attempt to posit a difference between people who self identify as pagan today and others (living and dead) who never called themselves pagan in the first place.
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