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6 years ago  ::  Sep 30, 2008 - 7:13PM #41
river8101
Posts: 5,564
Thank you Astroturf.  You are so right.  One little blurb though.  Some years ago, Dolly Parton had a TV show which was canceled (as so many new TV shows are).  She quickly blamed it on the Jews.  What nonsense.  Since then, I've had little use for her.   Christians blame the evils of Hollywood on the Jews too.  But compare the time when Jews were in charge of the studios years ago, and they were all started and owned by Jews.  Compare them  to the drug invested horror crime films you see today.    You could take kids to most any motion picture in the 30's  40's 50s  but in the 60's some of the motion picture studios  were sold and lots of other people got involved and thats when the motion picture industry became so outrageous,.  That's when drugs and crime became OK, whereas in earlier movies, the good guys usually won, and the bad guys got caught.   But you always hear that the Jews are responsible for the evil ways of Hollywood.    Jews get blamed for everything.
“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 30, 2008 - 8:51PM #42
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,790

river8101 wrote:

Thank you Astroturf.  You are so right.  One little blurb though.  Some years ago, Dolly Parton had a TV show which was canceled (as so many new TV shows are).  She quickly blamed it on the Jews.  What nonsense.  Since then, I've had little use for her.   Christians blame the evils of Hollywood on the Jews too. .

did she really say that?, (rhetorical question) I believe you, but I had never heard that, what the heck could have inspired her to say something so foolish, I wonder? Now I know why I never liked her.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 30, 2008 - 11:43PM #43
clyde5001
Posts: 3,501
Just as an aside: Dolly's remark was blown out of context. It was stupid, she felt terrible about it, and I believe her.

http://www.dollymania.net/comment.html
Shema Y'Israel Adnai Eloheinu, Adonei Echad.

Am Y'Israel Chai!

23,298 posts as of 2/27/2009

3,208 after the transition.

A 20,090 difference.
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6 years ago  ::  Oct 01, 2008 - 4:12AM #44
river8101
Posts: 5,564
I think she meant what she said.   I remember when it happened and i remember her saying it!   It was on the news, and she didn't deny it back then.     If she didn't mean it, or didn't say it, she would have apologized or denied the remark years ago.   

Geez! There are tons of programs about right wing Christianity on TV every day.  Many are on all day long.  They are on many channels, and some of them have story lines along with them.  The comments about the show being canceled was that it simply wasn't up to par.   Many new shows get try outs all the time, and many don't make it.

Mary Tyler Moore, one of my all time favorite sit coms was nearly canceled after the first try out.  I think it was CBS who didn't like the script from the get go.  So it barely made it to the screen.   Producers didn't like the idea of Mary, formerly the  perfect wife in the Dick Van Dike show, portraying Mary as a divorcee, (as the script represented her in the beginning)  and they didn't like Jewish Rhoda whom they decided  came across too pushy.   Back then, there were rules about no Jews portrayed in scripts as they offended either Jews or gentiles.  Divorcees in a sit com were rejected as well.  So, they changed Mary's role as a divorcee to a young woman who broke her engagement.   That's the way it was back then, The little neighbor child, Bess, liked Rhoda in the script, which softened Rhoda's role.  Also they didn't like Lou Grant because he was too gruff.   After the first try out in front of an audience the show was dumped.  At the try out,  the air conditioner broke on a very hot night,  the sound system didn't work and nobody laughed or applauded.   It was about to be canceled,  but other people  in the business who were familiar with the script and the cast loved it, and took it over.    The show had another try out. This time everything worked.  The audience loved it, it opened on a Sat. night, and played for 7 years.   

Dolly's  show just must not have been up to muster, or had a lousy script, so she blamed it on the Jews in Hollywood. 

Clyde, we can agree to disagree.  But after that, I never liked Dolly Parton.   I was never a fan of hers anyway,
“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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6 years ago  ::  Oct 01, 2008 - 5:00AM #45
river8101
Posts: 5,564
Clyde,

I think she meant what she said. I remember when it happened and i remember her saying it!  It was on the news, and she didn't deny it back then. If she didn't mean it, or didn't say it, she would have apologized or denied the remark years ago.

Geez! There are tons of programs about right wing Christianity on TV every day. Many are on all day long. They are on many channels, and some of them have story lines along with them. The comments about the show being canceled was that it simply wasn't up to par. Many new shows get try outs all the time, and most don't make it.  Back then, there was no cable, and I can remember shows I hated but the country loved.   For example;  The Beverly Hillbillys, LaVerne & Shirley,  Green Acres, Petticoat Junction, The Real McCoys, Hogans Heroes, and the Munsters etc.  (mostly CBS).  I knew they were there, but couldn't stand them.   There were a few better ones, such as the Dick Van Dyke show but later TV caught up with a more sophisticated America and along came All in the Family, The Odd Couple, Mash, Taxi, Bob Newhart, (the first one) all of which I loved.

One of the first of the newer ones was Mary Tyler Moore, one of my all time favorite sit coms which was nearly canceled from the beginning.   I think it was CBS who didn't like the script from the get go. So it barely made it to the screen. CBS didn't like the idea of Mary, formerly Laura, the perfect wife in the Dick Van Dike show, portraying Mary as a divorcee, (as the script represented her in the beginning).  They thought we stupid Americans would think she had divorced Rob, (Dick Van Dyke).  They didn't like Jewish Rhoda whom they decided came across too pushy. Back then, there were rules about no Jews portrayed in scripts as they offended either Jews or gentiles. Some of the rules were made by Jews, so Dolly had no cause to complain about her idea.    Divorcees in a sit com were rejected as well. So, they changed Mary's role as a divorcee to a young woman who broke her engagement.  (how silly)  That's the way it was back then.  Rhoda made it because the little neighbor child, Bess, liked Rhoda in the script, which softened Rhoda's role. Also, believe it or not,  they didn't want Lou Grant because he was too gruff.  After the first try out in front of an audience the show was about to be dumped. At the try out, the air conditioner broke on a very hot night, the sound system didn't work and nobody laughed or applauded. Just as it was to be canceled,  a few other loyal people in the business who were familiar with the script and the cast loved it, and took it over. Later the show had a 2nd try out. This time everything worked. The audience loved it, and it opened on prime time Sat. night, and played for 7 years.  Mary was still not a divorcee, but Rhoda was a favorite and got most of the laughs. Cloris Leachman as Phyllis was a show stopper and the "heavy drinking" Lou Grant was loved.   

Dolly's show just must not have been up to par,  or had a lousy script, so she blamed it on the Jews in Hollywood.  Seems to me they had enough shows devoted to the southern and western cultures anyway.  Either it was Petticoat Junction or Gunsmoke.

Clyde, we can agree to disagree. But after that, I never liked Dolly Parton.  But then, I was never a fan of hers anyway and never cared much for country music.
“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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6 years ago  ::  Oct 01, 2008 - 7:20AM #46
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,929
BS"D

This discussion Dolly Parton was quoted a few years back is a very important phenomenon to comprehend IMHO.  Personally, I do NOT think that Dolly is antisemitic nor do I take her discussion in and out of context to demonstrate any antisemitic tendencies.  Rather, this is a very complicated situation illustrating the dance between movie making and real life.

River's illustration of MTM is a good case and point.  Another is the Dick van Dyke show.  Looking into the making of these TV productions reveals a LOT about the tension in Hollywood regarding "how do we portray real people."  It appears to me the tendency is to make a clear distinction between actual depictions and dramatizations with a message that may or may not be related to the persons depicted.

In the case of Dolly's failed attempt, there is much more going on behind the scenes IMHO then the silly discussion about antisemitism portrays.

1. Global antisemitism IS a reality.  Deal with it.  It is because we are neither powerful nor numerous.  The weakest group is ALWAYS the scapegoat of society.  The fact that we continue to exist despite that recurring theme is a testimony to our perseverance as a people.

2. REAL antisemites hate Jews.  It's that simple.  Many of them never met a Jew in their life.  It is Christian and Moslem brain-washing, nothing more.  Example:  Mel Gibson is NOT an antisemite.  His father IS.  Dolly Parton is NOT an antisemite.  David Duke IS.

3. Everybody falls into globalizing issues in various discussions without intending to disparage a group globally on a conscious level.  We all do it.  Especially when we are frustrated.  Illustration:

I blame Neil Bush for the Savings and Loan disaster, his father for the current global crisis, his uncle for the current economic crisis and his family financial decisions at large for their involvement with the Saudi royal family, the world petroleum crisis (wars maintained over that resource) and the current global failure at dealing with Moslem terrorists.  That is an inaccurate globalization on my part that comes up when discussing national and international affairs that frustrate me.  Does that mean that I hate the Bush family or that I think that any member of the Bush family is worthless?  Absolutely NOT.  As a matter of fact if everyone in politics was like Barbara Bush this nation would be in a far better position in every way IMHO.

So here comes Dolly frustrated at not being able to make this vision come true and she accurately points out the problem - although not in very accurate terminology.  IMHO Dolly accurately pointed out that the tension between the brutal evangelicals on one hand and the demonized Jews on the other makes any such subject one requiring extra effort to produce without taking the flack that Mel Gibson's "Passion" had to go through.  This is important IMHO.  We should make an effort to understand the politics of Hollywood as well as its ethics.  If dollars were the absolute bottom line as it is in the Petroleum industry, we would see an unending spew of hate-filled propagandistic films from Hollywood.  Although we may not find the majority of its fruits acceptable, we must also face that without any ethical or moral forces at work behind the scenes it could be a LOT WORSE.

Therefore I view Dolly's quoted and misquoted statements of a few years ago evidence of the fact that the tension between religious fanaticism and genuine human wisdom exists in a profound way in Hollywood and it takes an extra-special effort in portraying situations and events that are likely to fuel the fires of fanaticism even though that was NOT the intent in this case.  So Dolly did not fail herself.  Dolly merely failed to find the necessary talent in Hollywood that could treat this subject dear to her heart without turning it into the media disaster that Mel Gibson's "passion" became after the fact.

It should be, IMHO, a clarion call for MORE talent to migrate to Hollywood so that visions like Dolly's do not fall by the wayside due to politics or lack of talent to overcome possibly tricky moral and ethical situations that might fuel the fires of fanaticism.  It is a shame to me when any person's dream to portray a real human event is lost in such a manner and even more shameful when a controversy develops around it because of misunderstanding. 

In a more balanced world we could certainly fit Dolly's vision of a few years ago somewhere between the extremes of the humor in South Park and the recounting of legends such as that depicted in "Passion."  IOW, I am fairly certain that had the talent that produced Dick van Dyke still been alive in Hollywood, Dolly would (no pun intended) have had her vision realized and the comments would never have had occasion to have been uttered (again, no pun intended).  :D
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6 years ago  ::  Oct 01, 2008 - 7:41PM #47
Astroturf
Posts: 671
Thank you for the heads up, River.  It's always good to know just what one is dealing with--especially if you have the words of a person in one's signature of every post.  I don't follow every word of each person whose work I like (too old to be that kind of fan, anymore ;) ), so I had no idea any of the controversy even happened.  I used her words for my sig because they perfectly sum up where I am in my life right now.  I'm considering removing them, anyway, just to avoid bringing up a difficult issue each time I post.  I'm going to have to ponder that, honestly.  I'm open to changing my sig if it will upset people each time I post somewhere.  To tell the truth, I also can't for the life of me figure out HOW to remove it. *embarrassed*  But to continue...

I googled to find info on this last night--I wanted to know all the particulars before I posted.  What was printed as a quote from her, in Vogue, did sound incendiary and like it was perpetuating the "Jews run Hollywood" stereotype.  I read her apology and her explanation of what she meant (i.e. that she got the impression that a Jewish writer would not be comfortable writing about Christianity because he/she would not be familiar with the particulars of the faith).  I could say that she was just cleverly backpedalling, but I hate to be that cynical when someone explains themselves and apologizes. I'm a fan of hers, so I read very carefully to make sure I wasn't ignoring all the information just to make myself feel better for liking her.  BTW, thank you for that link, Clyde.  Anyway, on the topic of Dolly Parton, we may have to agree to disagree as to whether or not she is an anti-Semite.  I vote no after reading about it. 


Buns, excellent, interesting post.  I would like to respond, but I can't think of anything to add.  Except that I'm utterly impressed (no pun intended) :D  Seriously,  thank you.   Myself, I can get a bit wound-up and dramatic about issues, so it's good to hear a voice of reason.  Your post probably wasn't directed at me, but I learned something from it, none-the-less.  And you also brought up such great points about the entertainment industry, globalization issues, religious fanaticism, bigotry.  I read it a few times, your post, just to take it all in.

Bigotry, in general, can be so pervasive that there will be different levels of how it creeps into reality.  You've got the Holocaust denyers, like Mel Gibson's father, and you've got the average mostly-decent person who says stupid things.  Neither one is excusable, but the intent is very different, IMO. 

I like the MTM example you give, River, in relation to how stupid the Hollywood big-wheels sometimes think that the viewers are.  They underestimate, repeatedly, what people are capable of understanding.  And who they are capable of being fond of, as far as characters go.  Off-topic, but I loved Taxi, MTM, the first Bob Newhart and HATED Hogan's frickin' Heroes.  Not even remotely amusing as a series idea.  I can't believe it ever even made it to TV.  Of course, it's success does question the intelligence of many viewers. I hate to tell you that I'm a big classic country music fan.  :eek:;)  But I like many other forms of music, also.  (Hi, MC!)
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