Post Reply
Page 1 of 5  •  1 2 3 4 5 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Hartman to ordain Women
7 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 10:59AM #1
agnon1
Posts: 161
David Hartman, the brilliant and ecclectic Rabbi who heads his eponymously named Institute in Jerusalem, has announced that they plan to begin ordaining Orthodox women rabbis, with the program opening next year. They plan to educate Rabbis of all streams in a 4 year training program.

Is this good or bad? A shape of things to come or a random event that will not lead to similar programs developing elsewhere?
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 11:16AM #2
ishmael_10
Posts: 317
That's interesting.  I hope it's something that progresses, obviously.  What relationship does Hartman have with the Israeli and American Orthodox communities?  In other words, will the ordained women be able to act as rabbi of Israeli and American orthodox communities?
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 11:45AM #3
Marysara722
Posts: 2,550
************

Excellent question there Ishmael.

Just wondering to myself here for a second . . .

Would for example say a young single Orthodox woman fresh out of college,
attend Hartman's institute with the intentions of becoming an Orthodox
rabbi. And whether or no she will be accepted (and welcomed) in say a
Synagogue located in for instance Crown Heights, B'klyn., and how the men would feel
about voting to select a woman as their rabbi from a list of the potential rabbinical candidates?
In addition to the above, the other side of this coin would be how receptive and
accepting the women would be to have a female as a rabbi for the first time in their lives?

Think it will ever happen?

:confused:

***************
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 11:56AM #4
trekkieterp
Posts: 45
WOW.  This is amazing.  Are women allowed on the bimah at all in Orthodox shuls?  I mean . . . I can't imagine that a female rabbi would have to stay behind the mechitzah . . . how would an Orthodox man accept a woman on the bimah?  Would it interrupt the kavanah (is this the right word?) of his davening? 

I'd love to see an Orthodox Jew respond to this thread.  How would you feel if your shul put a female rabbi on the bimah?
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 12:10PM #5
agnon1
Posts: 161
I should point out that Hartman seems to be considering smicha as a steps to being an educational leader in Jewish day schools in the States.   This made no sense to me; as import as that role is, the title Rabbi would seem to suggest the ability to make halakhic decisions for an Orthodox community.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 1:00PM #6
celesteno
Posts: 37
I don't understand the excitement.  I don't think this would have any affect on the normative Orthodox community at all.  All this does is give credence to what is in my experience the majority of Orthodox Jews opinion on very left wing Modern Orthodoxy (that's it's not really Orthodox or hanging in there by a thread--acceptance of this would probably push those communities out).  I personally wouldn't and doubt very many Orthodox people would consider any of these women a rabbi.  From my understanding they also don't learn one of the traditional Orthodox qualifications for receiving smicha. He's basically training them in Jewish education. there are other institutions out there where they can do that--and get a master's degree at the end. 

I don't know any Orthodox communities (barring those on the far left wing) which would potentially consider these women rabbis let alone have them address/guide their shuls as such--FOR SURE NOT in Crown Heights.  They would not be considered for a pulpit position by anything other than a fringe community.

There are some shuls that call themselves Modern Orthodox that let women lead part of kabbalat shabbat (however that is still very controversial).  I personally am unaware of any shul where a woman can be on the bima during general davening, although there are shuls where women give the divrei Torah or announcements from the bima. 

As an Orthodox woman, I'm not interested in women rabbis, am not comfortable with one and don't see why people are trying to cram them down our throat.  Honestly, the whole thing annoys me.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 1:47PM #7
lauramushkat
Posts: 625
As I have said elsewhere you are whatever you call yourself.  I never heard of any David Hartman other then an actor who later was on Good Morning America-if I have the name right!

One of the things that make  known that a Jewish house of worship belongs to the Orthodox way of thinking is they do not have egalitarian houses of worship.This term means that females have all the right and privid\ledges and demands on themt hat the males do.

There are Reform egalitarian and Conservative but no Orthodox.  If a shul, claims it is to become egalitarian in any way here  or anywhere else in the world and has been  Orthodox, I am sure it would loose credibility with any orgaizations that are  Orthodox and those wishing to pray as Orthodox would leave the house of  worship en masse.

If you want the rights, privledges and the demands that are made on the Jewish male then you do not join an Orhtodox shul unless they are the only ones in town.  In this case you need to go along with the way the Orthodox do things.

Hugs,
Laura
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 2:14PM #8
ishmael_10
Posts: 317
[QUOTE=celesteno;212891]I don't understand the excitement.  I don't think this would have any affect on the normative Orthodox community at all.  All this does is give credence to what is in my experience the majority of Orthodox Jews opinion on very left wing Modern Orthodoxy (that's it's not really Orthodox or hanging in there by a thread--acceptance of this would probably push those communities out)...They would not be considered for a pulpit position by anything other than a fringe community.[/QUOTE]

Where does this line of thought end?  You say that they would not be considered for a pulpit position by any other than a "fringe" congregation.  In that case, a "fringe" congregation becomes anything you want it to become.  This is a very disturbing trend, this lack of self-definition and the idea of defining ones own movement by negating the halakhic validity of other movements, or sub-movements.  If a shul otherwise follows the "normative Orthodox community" but has a woman rabbi, is it now less Orthodox?  And who defines Orthodoxy?  When does the "fringe" become the establishment, and if the fringe does become the establishment, who are the Orthodox?  This Hartman Institute has ordained Orthodox rabbis in the past, has it not? So is the Institute no longer Orthodox enough for the Orthodoxy?  Will the male rabbinical students' ordination be brought into question as a result of the ordination of women?
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 2:18PM #9
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
[QUOTE=celesteno;212891]

As an Orthodox woman, I'm not interested in women rabbis, am not comfortable with one and don't see why people are trying to cram them down our throat.  Honestly, the whole thing annoys me.[/QUOTE]

That's probably because you've completely internalized the sexist ideology of Orthodoxy that says you're not qualified to be a rabbi. It's all based on male fear of women's "icky lady parts" and the "cooties" you get once a month.

It's bad enough for men to consider women inferior and deprive them of positions of power and leadership. It's just plain sad when a woman internalizes this ideology and comes to believe herself inferior. It's even worse when she buys the whole thing and believes her obviously inferior position is not inferior at all.

It's the same situation of a slave in the Old South who came to love his owner and came to believe that there wasn't anything really wrong in being the wholly-owned chattel property of another human being.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 2:35PM #10
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
Upon further research, this isn't really the big deal that its made out to be. It sounds like they're following the same format as the Academy of Jewish Religion or the Rabbinical School at Hebrew College -- only doing a half-assed job of it.

I'm not surprised that the Dark Lord Sauron declined to fund them an additional year...
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 5  •  1 2 3 4 5 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook