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6 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2008 - 7:11AM #111
TheWhiteHart
Posts: 1,634
[QUOTE=Incognitus;632650]So far everything that has been said by my detractors have been unproven. It was claimed C. Hawkins misrepresnted Wicca. I asked for an example.  NO EXAMPLE WAS GIVEN.

I asked for a page from his book. NO PAGE WAS GIVEN.

It was claimed C. Hawkins had a Myspace page. NO LINK WAS GIVEN.


Thus far we have heard a lot of assertions, but nothing to back them up.[/QUOTE]

MySpace Page:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=123138264

A rather easy Google search. Second link from the top. Honestly, griping because no one provided the link when you had no real interest in looking for it yourself is hyperbole.

I haven't read any of his books. I did read an article he wrote once. It was full of vague generalities of paganism in general, rather than anything specific about Wicca. It was fairly obvious he knew next to nothing about Wicca.

And if you had been a practicing Wiccan for 50 years, then you would have said so, and given more specifics, rather than crying about "What if" or referencing Hawkins.  Your About Me section of your profile is simply a book list of apologetic reading. *yawn*

And no one here has refuted what you've said about Christianity and Wicca. WE AGREE WITH YOU. You are beating a dead horse. Good luck with that...
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2008 - 7:55AM #112
KeaErisdottir
Posts: 222
[QUOTE=Incognitus;632645]Again, SHOW ME WHERE I MISREPRESENTED WICCA.



You have misrepresented Wicca all along, through various claims made here.  You misrepresented Wicca by claiming that Craig Hawkins is an expert on it.  The list goes on.

[QUOTE]Do they not engage in divination?



Relevance?  Since the Biblical proscription doesn't apply to those not practicing the faith, there isn't an argument.

[QUOTE]Do they not engage in magic?[/QUOTE]

All religions engage in magic when there is a petitioning of Deity--it's called Theurgy

Do they not engage in polytheism?
[/QUOTE]

And?  You do know that any branch of Christianity that views the Godhead as separate beings is also a polytheism.  There are several.

THIS IS ALL I EVER CLAIMED TO REFUTE ON BIBLICAL GROUNDS.



The Bible is not authoritative or binding for a Wiccan.  I would expect that part to be clear.

[QUOTE]And my point was NOT that I was Wiccan for fifty years, my point was that the person who accused me of not know about Wicca, actually knows nothing about me at all.



You are the one who chose to put the pretense out there that you might have been a Wiccan for 50 years.  Being Wiccans, and demanding honesty and integrity from people around us, we simply expect you to put up or shut up on the claim. 

All I have done on this thread is contrast the Bible and Wiccan practice. THAT IS ALL I HAVE ATTEMPTED TO DO.

I never came here to preach or teach Wicca.[/QUOTE]

No, it would seem from your arguments that you are actually engaging in one of the many forms of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Distrust) argument that Christians use to proselytize.  Thought that proselytizing was a nono on this board.

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6 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2008 - 10:04AM #113
TheWhiteHart
Posts: 1,634
I should add, the article I mentioned by Craig Hawkins quoted Aidan Kelly as an expert source on Wicca. Hmm.
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2008 - 11:55AM #114
costrel
Posts: 6,217
I thought I'd respond to a few older points:

[QUOTE=Incognitus;620880]This is totally a red herring and ad hominem, but I'm enjoying it so I'll play along. Pagans and atheists tend to focus on the WHO said what as opposed to the WHAT is said.[/Quote]

Not sure why you mention "atheists" here, but it is important, from an intellectual point of view (as opposed to a punditry), that one focuses on the individual's expertise and therefore on one's credibility as an authority. Take Richard Dawkins, for instance. He may rant and rave against God all he likes, but one can also say that since he has no training in a seminary (at least I haven't heard that he ever attended a seminary), and is an evolutionary biologist instead of a trained theologian, that his opinions on God and religion lack any kind of authority (and therefore, credibility).

One can also say the same for the U of California, Berkeley, law professor, Phillip Johnson, who invented modern "Intelligent Design." He, so far as I know, is not a biologist, and doesn't appear to have had any seminary training either. The same can be said for all the lay Christians who want to spout out their opinions; Christians who have never studied in a seminary, and who are certainly not priests, monastics, or even Protestant ministers. (But see below for a counter-argument concerning the "me" generation.)

Of course, as is well-known in Shakespeare studies, sometimes the academics tend to be the rigid enforcers of traditionalism and orthodoxy in such a way that non-academic outsiders (such as Eric Sams and Ron Rosenbaum) can add insightful "breaths of fresh air" to the stuffiness of the university-based and professional academic world. But usually, non-professional and lay people are full of hot air and wild anti-intellectual assertions. So yes, there are good reasons to focus on who is saying something, as well as on what he or she is saying.

[Quote]Oh and by the way, Wicca is not an experiencial religion. It's a "me" generation religion. When the "me" generation goes religious, they generally seek out a religion where the self remains the center of focus. No personal transformation is necessary in "me" generation religions. That is why they are so popular today. [UFO's, Wicca, deified gurus, scientology, etc] all "me" generation cults.[/QUOTE]

If you're going to identify Wicca as a "me" generation (or an "i-generation") religion, then you also better include all forms of Evangelical Christianity (and I would argue, Protestant as well), which certainly appear to place more emphasis on the self and a personal God rather than on the collective church and a monarchical God.

Of course, what is exactly wrong with the "me" generation? What is wrong with the average individual taking charge of his or her own religious/spiritual beliefs and identity, rather than letting a bunch of stuffy old celibates tell a person what one can and cannot believe in, and then (historically) put a person to death - or damn one to hell - if he or she disagrees? And what is wrong with Europe and the U.S. finally breaking away from a Christian past?

Or maybe defining our present age as a "me" generation is not accurate - maybe it would be more accurate to describe it as a consumerist- and/or an entertainment-based culture? And as certain cultural studies critics note, whether one is reading a book by Joel Osteen or buying a Christian shirt at Wal-Mart, Christian transformation these days is largely based on purchasing material goods, not selling everything one owns, as Jesus commanded so long ago in the Gospels.

And if you don't think Wicca is about inner transformation, then I (a non-Wiccan) would have to say that you don't know much about Wicca.
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2008 - 11:55AM #115
costrel
Posts: 6,217
I thought I'd respond to a few older points:

[QUOTE=Incognitus;620880]This is totally a red herring and ad hominem, but I'm enjoying it so I'll play along. Pagans and atheists tend to focus on the WHO said what as opposed to the WHAT is said.[/Quote]

Not sure why you mention "atheists" here, but it is important, from an intellectual point of view (as opposed to a punditry), that one focuses on the individual's expertise and therefore on one's credibility as an authority. Take Richard Dawkins, for instance. He may rant and rave against God all he likes, but one can also say that since he has no training in a seminary (at least I haven't heard that he ever attended a seminary), and is an evolutionary biologist instead of a trained theologian, that his opinions on God and religion lack any kind of authority (and therefore, credibility).

One can also say the same for the U of California, Berkeley, law professor, Phillip Johnson, who invented modern "Intelligent Design." He, so far as I know, is not a biologist, and doesn't appear to have had any seminary training either. The same can be said for all the lay Christians who want to spout out their opinions; Christians who have never studied in a seminary, and who are certainly not priests, monastics, or even Protestant ministers. (But see below for a counter-argument concerning the "me" generation.)

Of course, as is well-known in Shakespeare studies, sometimes the academics tend to be the rigid enforcers of traditionalism and orthodoxy in such a way that non-academic outsiders (such as Eric Sams and Ron Rosenbaum) can add insightful "breaths of fresh air" to the stuffiness of the university-based and professional academic world. But usually, non-professional and lay people are full of hot air and wild anti-intellectual assertions. So yes, there are good reasons to focus on who is saying something, as well as on what he or she is saying.

[Quote]Oh and by the way, Wicca is not an experiencial religion. It's a "me" generation religion. When the "me" generation goes religious, they generally seek out a religion where the self remains the center of focus. No personal transformation is necessary in "me" generation religions. That is why they are so popular today. [UFO's, Wicca, deified gurus, scientology, etc] all "me" generation cults.[/QUOTE]

If you're going to identify Wicca as a "me" generation (or an "i-generation") religion, then you also better include all forms of Evangelical Christianity (and I would argue, Protestant as well), which certainly appear to place more emphasis on the self and a personal God rather than on the collective church and a monarchical God.

Of course, what is exactly wrong with the "me" generation? What is wrong with the average individual taking charge of his or her own religious/spiritual beliefs and identity, rather than letting a bunch of stuffy old celibates tell a person what one can and cannot believe in, and then (historically) put a person to death - or damn one to hell - if he or she disagrees? And what is wrong with Europe and the U.S. finally breaking away from a Christian past?

Or maybe defining our present age as a "me" generation is not accurate - maybe it would be more accurate to describe it as a consumerist- and/or an entertainment-based culture? And as certain cultural studies critics note, whether one is reading a book by Joel Osteen or buying a Christian shirt at Wal-Mart, Christian transformation these days is largely based on purchasing material goods, not selling everything one owns, as Jesus commanded so long ago in the Gospels.

And if you don't think Wicca is about inner transformation, then I (a non-Wiccan) would have to say that you don't know much about Wicca.
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2008 - 4:43AM #116
Incognitus
Posts: 593
[QUOTE=TheWhiteHart;632713]MySpace Page:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=123138264

A rather easy Google search. Second link from the top. Honestly, griping because no one provided the link when you had no real interest in looking for it yourself is hyperbole. [/quote]

That's not Craig's page. That's a FAN of Craig. Craig is not 32 as the page says. He's 50 [see Hawkins, Witchraft, p.2]. People often make Myspace pages after their idols. I'm an X-Files fan. You know how many David Duchovny and Gilian Anderson Myspace pages there are? I know that is not Craig's page because it got his age wrong, and Craig never mentioned anything about a Myspace page on his radio show. He only has one site [apologeticsinfo.org].
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2008 - 4:48AM #117
Incognitus
Posts: 593
[QUOTE=KeaErisdottir;632749]You have misrepresented Wicca all along, through various claims made here.  You misrepresented Wicca by claiming that Craig Hawkins is an expert on it.  The list goes on. [/quote]

That remains to be proven. But I would say he is probably not an expert on every detail of Wicca.  He's not even an expert on Christianity. Who really is an expert? But I would say he's an expert on how Wicca compares with Christianity. That is one of his specialities -- comparative religions.
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2008 - 4:54AM #118
Incognitus
Posts: 593
[QUOTE=TheWhiteHart;632933]I should add, the article I mentioned by Craig Hawkins quoted Aidan Kelly as an expert source on Wicca. Hmm.[/QUOTE]

Kelly is a major spokesperson for witchcraft today. [see Hawkins, Witchcraft, p.27]. He lists Kelly along with twenty-eight other spokespersons. He quotes Kelly many times in his book.
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2008 - 9:21AM #119
Alysoun
Posts: 21
Aidan Kelly has zero credibility with Wiccans, except for his own little cabal.  Anyone using Kelly as a source for their information does, by association, prove they know nothing, really, about modern Wicca, BTW in particular.  They also raise serious doubts about their ability to be good judges of character.  Mr. Kelly is a traitor, pure and simple.

Now, about being an expert in comparative religions....
You have to KNOW the faiths you are comparing.  I *was* a Christian, a devout one, very well-educated in my faith and possessor of a much-thumbed Scofield Annotated KJV.  Then, I became Wiccan - a properly initiated member of an old Tradition.  For nearly 30 years, I have been an initiate priestess and practitioner of my faith.  Therefore, *I*, and others like me, and others initiated into other Wiccan trads, can speak with some real understanding as to the differences between Christianity and Wicca.
 
BUT, if a person is NOT Wiccan, has never had the experiences that MAKE one Wiccan...they do not know Wicca and, therefore, cannot possibly know anything real about the faith.  This renders it *impossible* for them to know enough true information to be ABLE to compare it with Christianity.

Alysoun
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2008 - 9:43AM #120
TheWhiteHart
Posts: 1,634
[QUOTE=Incognitus;635014]Kelly is a major spokesperson for witchcraft today. [see Hawkins, Witchcraft, p.27]. He lists Kelly along with twenty-eight other spokespersons. He quotes Kelly many times in his book.[/QUOTE]

Kelly is a major spokesperson for his own ego. He moves from religion to religion seeking acceptance and recognition. I hear he's busy fleecing the Mormons these days. As I said, quoting Kelly is not a good sign, and as Alysoun stated, indicates bad character judgement.
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