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6 years ago  ::  Nov 08, 2007 - 3:11AM #1
Creedofcrusades
Posts: 1,571
I find the ideas of karma and reincarnation to be just about the most depressing ones I have ever seen as expressions of a religion. And the results as well. But I dont really understand the details. I have seen some mention of Karma in various threads here and it reminds me of questions I have about it. Wouldnt Karma imply some sort of gatekeeper or all powerful diety to administer? How would the sins or crimes of an individual be assigned to him later on in life. Or the next life. Am I wrong in thinking karma and reincarnation are ideas that must be taken together?
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 08, 2007 - 1:06PM #2
tameless_heart
Posts: 2,084
I'd say from some standpoints, yes Creed, you're wrong to say that karma and reincarnation must be taken together, but from other standpoints, no you're not. I don't believe in karma; I believe what you do comes back. I don't think it compounds one way or the other or sticks to you in any existence but this one.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 08, 2007 - 1:49PM #3
GreenEyedLily
Posts: 604
I dont understand how reincarnation or karma could be depressing...would you care to share why you Creed feel they are?

And I always thought karma was about whatever you do coming back to you Tameless?  Whether it be in this life or another I believe differs among religions.

I agree that no, karma and reincarnation do not necessarily have to be joined together - but often they are.  My thoughts on karma is that people tend to use that term when speaking of negative effects or events in their life, yet fail to recognize that it goes both ways.  When something positive happens in our life that also is karma.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 08, 2007 - 1:59PM #4
gangajal
Posts: 835
Karma is simply the law of causation. What goes around comes around.  Karma literally means one's work. There is no way one can live without doing some work. There is thus no reason to feel depressed about karma. In fact the idea of karma encourages one to be responsible for one's actions.

Ishvara (usually translated as God) dispenses the fruits of our karma.

It is difficult to see how one can separate karma and reincarnation. The reason is as follows. According to Hindu dharma one has to be perfect, experience Truth or God and be free. Now it is obvious that most people are not perfect since their karma is mixed. So what happens to them when they die. They are given more chances to be perfect. So they are born again and again so that they can perfect their karma and hence be perfect and be free. This is the reason to introduce the idea of reincarnation.

The twin ideas of karma and reincarnation are associated with freedom.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 08, 2007 - 3:20PM #5
Creedofcrusades
Posts: 1,571
[QUOTE=GreenEyedLily;54314]I dont understand how reincarnation or karma could be depressing...would you care to share why you Creed feel they are?

[/QUOTE]


   The purpose of reincarnation is to purify Karma isnt it? I forgot to mention pantheism but that seems to be the third leg of the stool for eastern religions teaching reincarnation. The ultimate goal is to escape the miserable cycles of reincarnation and either be annihilated or merged with the Universe. Bad Karma traps you and you must pay the consequences.
  It is bad for society and for indivudualism. Look at the nations which were formed by these religions. India comes to mind. Say you see a man who was born blind and crippled. Bad Karma is the reason...its his fault. Help him and you interfere with his karmic destiny right?
   Pantheism is even more depressing as an idea. I am speakign of immanence. When loving your neighbor is really loving yourself and god is you then selfishness can only be advanced.
   Of course "depressing" doesnt mean "not true". Lukemia is depressing but does exist. I disbelieve karma, reincarnation and pantheism on other grounds. I only say that I dont  find any joy in the teachings of these eastern religions as I do in other religions.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 08, 2007 - 5:08PM #6
gangajal
Posts: 835
The purpose of reincarnation is not to purify Karma. Its purpose is to give a person another chance to purify her mind so that then she can have freedom from all bondage.

It is not bad karma trapping anyone.  It is about behaving responsibly. How can responsible behavior be bad for society? Look at India. It has the second fastest growing economy in the world.  It will overtake US economy by 2040. Hundreds of millions of people have been raised out of poverty in the last 60 years.

The theory of karma may be bad for individualism since responsible behavior implies caring for others and not insisting on one's own selfish needs. Individualism can degenerate to an extreme selfish doctrine.

Selfless service is the basis of good karmic behavior.  Helping a blind person does not interfere with that person's  karmic destiny.  It is in fact not possible to affect another person's karmic destiny since each person is judged by his or her OWN karma.

Yes, Pantheism  implies that loving your neighbor is really loving yourself and god is you. This does not mean selfishness since you are loving all in the same way as you are loving yourself. Selfishness means NOT loving others and ONLY loving oneself. 

Eastern dharmas are not asking anyone to blindly believe in anything unlike western religions.

It is extremely depressing to read such ignorant and illiterate comments about karma and reincarnation.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2007 - 9:00AM #7
Creedofcrusades
Posts: 1,571
Hmmm...not much of a response but its a difficult subject. Anyhow the results speak for themselves. Look at the difference between societies which are governed by Karma and those which were christian founded. The Christian ones are usually more prosperous and free. And that is what I would expect.
  Karma is the death of individualism and compassion. Pantheism is the birth of selfishness. India is the best example of this. Lets make sure we dont incorpoirate their failures over our successes.
  By the way, there is not one single example of a western european religion which incorporated Karma or reincarnation. When neopaganism was invented the last century people who didnt know better melded it onto what they thought were ancient European beliefs. But it just doesnt work because theya re uniquely Eastern ideas. Along with untouchables, worshipping cows and burning wives with their husbands.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2007 - 1:24PM #8
gangajal
Posts: 835
Slavery, inquisition, genocide, burning at the stake, colonization, looting of other people's wealth, racism ......... , hmmm. the list is rather long.......
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2007 - 3:28PM #9
tameless_heart
Posts: 2,084

GreenEyedLily wrote:


And I always thought karma was about whatever you do coming back to you Tameless? Whether it be in this life or another I believe differs among religions.



I was looking at karma from teh standpoint of the religions from which it originated. In Hindu thought, karma compounds through out your life and builds up into later lives. In south east asian buddhism, you build temples to gain merit and good karma so you'll have a better life in the next. That's how I regard Karma, from its cultural meanings.

When I said I believe what you do comes back, I was stating my own belief from my culture, and in the exact words it was taught to me as a child. I try not to borrow terms. (I got jumped for this term thing over on the folk magic board... I suppose I should be careful.:p)

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6 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2007 - 3:38PM #10
Creedofcrusades
Posts: 1,571
[QUOTE=tameless_heart;57094]I was looking at karma from teh standpoint of the religions from which it originated. In Hindu thought, karma compounds through out your life and builds up into later lives. In south east asian buddhism, you build temples to gain merit and good karma so you'll have a better life in the next. That's how I regard Karma, from its cultural meanings.

When I said I believe what you do comes back, I was stating my own belief from my culture, and in the exact words it was taught to me as a child. I try not to borrow terms. (I got jumped for this term thing over on the folk magic board... I suppose I should be careful.:p)[/QUOTE]

   Yes you must be careful not to speak thoughts that have not been approved here :) Anyhow I am thankful that I dont have the burden of "karma".
  "I dont know what I did to deserve this but I deserve it because three lives ago...."
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