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Switch to Forum Live View If you believe in "hell-fire"--Why?
6 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 9:07AM #51
Lilley
Posts: 1,181
Subtle,

Still, we're discussing Hell here and nothing in the Book of Enoch proves or quite frankly even remotely describes the Hell many EC's think Christ was allegedly describing in Luke 16. 

Luke 16:24-26:  "So [the rich man] called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'   But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.  And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us."

The Book of Enoch, chapter 22  - Sheol:
And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock.  And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.  Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.' ...

"Then I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?'  And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated.  And such a division has been  make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their lifetime."

Both Luke 16 and Enoch 22 describe Sheol as a place with divisions that separate the souls of the dead and both describe the righteous having access to water.  I'd say the Book of Enoch precisely describes what we see in Luke 16.
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 1:25PM #52
jumbojava
Posts: 4,139

samie wrote:

I have no agenda and I am not associated (or indoctrinated) with any religion. The only doctrine which interests me is the word of God. Any deviation from bible doctrine, serves only to dilute the word of God. Since eternal Hell is a part the biblical doctrine, any assertion from any other source which states that it does not exist is not valid as a doctrine, and is only an opinion.

Therefore, if you really want to have a serious discussion with me about doctrine, it will need to begin with the understanding of the following premise.

Revelation 22:18-21
For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book, and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifies these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.



On this Palmtree, just wanted you to know that I agree 100%. Samie



So, you both believe that non-Christians are going to hell?

"How many broken promises until we get the message, that until we know the equal we will never feel the free?" ~ Jon Anderson
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 1:45PM #53
wontgetfooledagain
Posts: 5,472

jumbojava wrote:



So, you both believe that non-Christians are going to hell?



I think that is one of the few things that most Christians seem to agree on. I'm sure it is very bonding for them and gives them that warm and fuzzy feeling. ;)

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6 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 2:05PM #54
samie
Posts: 5,575
Do I believe that all non-Christians are going to hell?  NO, I don't believe that anymore, I use to I admit.  I've been on these boards and reading for along time now and I can't believe that anymore.  There are far to many wonderful, kind and loving people in this world that are not called 'Christian', But I know that God loves them anyway, no matter what, He loves them just the same.  That being said, I personally believe in my Bible and I take 'most' of it quite literally in fact, but thats me.  I do believe in a Heaven and a Hell, hey, thats just some little thing in everyones mind, if you believe in any kind of 'after-life'.  But who 'exactly' gets to go to either place, I personally do believe they exist, I don't know.  I leave that up to God and Jesus.  In my beliefs, Jesus is the judge and I'll let Him do it.  But we're all individuals and we'll be judged individually, I don't know anyway else to say it.  samie

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6 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 3:48PM #55
Brother_Yossarian
Posts: 4,561
Printerlady:  B. Many Christiansare indoctrinated with the idea that they are evil to the core. Evil from birth. Thus, they are trained to see humans as "deserving" of hell/torture because of their innnate "evilness"

Maybe this is one of those "cart before the horse" things.  Like, maybe when the early Christians started proclaiming eternal hell fire, people said, "Hey, who is so bad they deserve that?"

So the Christians decided that we must be pretty bad to deserve hell, and came up with original sin.
"In order that nothing may be wanting to the felicity of the blessed spirits in heaven, a perfect view is granted to them of the tortures of the damned."--St. Thomas Aquinas
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 3:57PM #56
Brother_Yossarian
Posts: 4,561
Jerry:  Still, we're discussing Hell here and nothing in the Book of Enoch proves or quite frankly even remotely describes the Hell many EC's think Christ was allegedly describing in Luke 16.

Then again, Luke 16 doesn't remotely resemble the Hell most EC's believe in.  A lot of EC's don't think, for example, that believers will see the tortures of the damned, but in Luke 16 Lazarus and Abraham have a panoramic view.  A lot of EC's think only believers will go to heaven, but in Luke16 Abraham explains to the rich man that he had his good things on earth, and now he's denied them, while Lazarus has the good things he was denied back on earth.  The very fact Abraham is conversing with a damned soul in hell is contrary to the beliefs of a whole lot of EC's, who are often told that when they are in heaven they won't remember their lost and unsaved loved ones, so they won't need to feel sorrow for them.
"In order that nothing may be wanting to the felicity of the blessed spirits in heaven, a perfect view is granted to them of the tortures of the damned."--St. Thomas Aquinas
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 1:45PM #57
wontgetfooledagain
Posts: 5,472

jumbojava wrote:



So, you both believe that non-Christians are going to hell?



I think that is one of the few things that most Christians seem to agree on. I'm sure it is very bonding for them and gives them that warm and fuzzy feeling. ;)

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6 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 2:05PM #58
samie
Posts: 5,575
Do I believe that all non-Christians are going to hell?  NO, I don't believe that anymore, I use to I admit.  I've been on these boards and reading for along time now and I can't believe that anymore.  There are far to many wonderful, kind and loving people in this world that are not called 'Christian', But I know that God loves them anyway, no matter what, He loves them just the same.  That being said, I personally believe in my Bible and I take 'most' of it quite literally in fact, but thats me.  I do believe in a Heaven and a Hell, hey, thats just some little thing in everyones mind, if you believe in any kind of 'after-life'.  But who 'exactly' gets to go to either place, I personally do believe they exist, I don't know.  I leave that up to God and Jesus.  In my beliefs, Jesus is the judge and I'll let Him do it.  But we're all individuals and we'll be judged individually, I don't know anyway else to say it.  samie

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6 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 3:48PM #59
Brother_Yossarian
Posts: 4,561
Printerlady:  B. Many Christiansare indoctrinated with the idea that they are evil to the core. Evil from birth. Thus, they are trained to see humans as "deserving" of hell/torture because of their innnate "evilness"

Maybe this is one of those "cart before the horse" things.  Like, maybe when the early Christians started proclaiming eternal hell fire, people said, "Hey, who is so bad they deserve that?"

So the Christians decided that we must be pretty bad to deserve hell, and came up with original sin.
"In order that nothing may be wanting to the felicity of the blessed spirits in heaven, a perfect view is granted to them of the tortures of the damned."--St. Thomas Aquinas
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 3:57PM #60
Brother_Yossarian
Posts: 4,561
Jerry:  Still, we're discussing Hell here and nothing in the Book of Enoch proves or quite frankly even remotely describes the Hell many EC's think Christ was allegedly describing in Luke 16.

Then again, Luke 16 doesn't remotely resemble the Hell most EC's believe in.  A lot of EC's don't think, for example, that believers will see the tortures of the damned, but in Luke 16 Lazarus and Abraham have a panoramic view.  A lot of EC's think only believers will go to heaven, but in Luke16 Abraham explains to the rich man that he had his good things on earth, and now he's denied them, while Lazarus has the good things he was denied back on earth.  The very fact Abraham is conversing with a damned soul in hell is contrary to the beliefs of a whole lot of EC's, who are often told that when they are in heaven they won't remember their lost and unsaved loved ones, so they won't need to feel sorrow for them.
"In order that nothing may be wanting to the felicity of the blessed spirits in heaven, a perfect view is granted to them of the tortures of the damned."--St. Thomas Aquinas
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