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Switch to Forum Live View If you believe in "hell-fire"--Why?
11 years ago  ::  Nov 03, 2007 - 5:16PM #31
Posts: 3,231

subtleguy01 wrote:

Jerry: Your remark is rather curious, Palmtree. Are you suggesting that Christ didn't intend to save EVERYONE from eternal Hell, whatever Hell is? If Jesus didn't intend to save EVERYONE, who then did he intend to save?

However, I do agree that since there is no such thing as Hell, there is no need for a savior. Thus, there was and remains no reason for Jesus to have saved anyone. 

I think it's always a good thing when Christians can agree with non-Christians about a theological point.

It is a good thing when we can agree! However, only those whom the Father has given can be saved.

  John 6:37-40 
  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

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11 years ago  ::  Nov 03, 2007 - 5:54PM #32
Posts: 284
It looks to me like some cages are rattling.   That's good to get some various views.  That's what friendly dialogue is all about.  Palmtree0 said "Christ endured eternal-hell for those whom he intends to save from eternal-hell."  So, please correct me if I am wrong, but, according to you, Christ chooses to save some and not save others from "eternal-hell" or am I not reading that correctly?  I have understood from my reading of Scripture that each of us has a choice as to whether we believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.  Where did you get the idea that "Christ endured eternal-hell"?  True, Acts 2:31tells us that he was "not forsaken in hell" but there is no mention that he endured the fire and torments of such a misrepresented place as helll-fire.  He simply was resurrected from his grave/tomb after parts of 3 days.  If that were really the case (Christ enduring pain, suffering and burning, etc.) he would have had first-hand knowledge of it from his sufferrings and one would think, as important as that would have been, that he would have spoken of it after the fact, not just once, but would have consistently and regularly told about it and warned about it during those days he showed himself to his disciples prior to his ascension into heaven.   

You also said:  "If there is no hell, then Christians have no need for a Savior..."  Where in the Scriptures does it tell us that Christ came to save sinners from hell-fire?  That is not Scriptural.  Christ came as a ransomer--to buy back that what the first pair lost for us, which was everlasting life here on earth (under the new heavens, God's kingdom).  He is in fact spoken of by Paul at 1 Cor. 15:45 as "the last Adam" after Paul's mention of the "first Adam".  Jesus resembles Adam in that both were/are direct sons of God, and both were perfect.   Jesus had to be equal to Adam from the standpoint of also being a direct son of God and perfect.  No other man could serve as the ransom and buy back what Adam lost for humankind.  Because of their disobedience the first pair lost their perfection, which resulted in sin entering the world, and death through sin.  (See Romans 5:12).  Death was NOT part of God's original purpose and came about ONLY because of the disobedience of the first pair.  Because they lost their perfection, they could not reproduce perfect offspring.  In God's justice and Love, He paved the way for the promised seed, Jesus Christ, to ransom back what Adam lost for humankind,the offspring of Adam and Eve, which was/will be perfect life forever on a paradisaic earth, which would fulfill God's original and lasting purpose.  (See Isa. 55:11).  Nothing was ever stated in the Bible--any part of it-- that Jesus was sent to save us from hell-fire.  The penalty for disobedience of the first pair was DEATH (Gen. 2:17)--not everlasting hell-fire and torment.  That's why 1 Cor. 15:26 says that the last enemy DEATH is to be destroyed.  That's why Rev. 21:4 tells us, among other things, that "death will be no more."  How JUST is burning in hell-fire for ever and ever?  If you didn't read my first couple of posts, please go back and read them.   So, YES, all of mankind DOES have "a need for a Savior" and Jesus Christ proved to be that Savior, which JWs are very much aware of.
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11 years ago  ::  Nov 03, 2007 - 6:25PM #33
Posts: 3,231
according to you, Christ chooses to save some and not save others from eternal-hell
  This concept is not might idea, because it is absolutely biblical, and straight from the words of Jesus.
  Matthew 25:41-46
  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink, I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.
  Psalms 9:17 
  The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
  I have understood from my reading of Scripture that each of us has a choice as to whether we believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
  That understanding did not arrive by the scriptures because you have it backwards.
  John 6:70a 
  Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you!
  Where did you get the idea that "Christ endured eternal-hell
  Here are only a few, and there are many more.
  2Samuel 22:6 
  The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me
  Psalms 16:10
  For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
  Psalms 86:13 
  For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
  Psalms 116:3 
  The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me, I found trouble and sorrow.
  Proverbs 15:11 
  Hell and destruction are before the LORD, how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
  Nothing was ever stated in the Bible--any part of it-- that Jesus was sent to save us from hell-fire.
  You have got to be kidding?
  Rev 2:11 
  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
  Rev 20:6 
  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
  Rev 20:14
  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
  Rev 21:8
  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
  If you didn't read my first couple of posts, please go back and read them.
  Oh, I read them alright.
  Perhaps, you can also find some time to read the bible.
  Believe me, its worth the effort.
  Romans 10:17 
  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
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11 years ago  ::  Nov 03, 2007 - 6:26PM #34
Posts: 284

I'm really sorry you have had some not-so-good experiences with JWs at your door.  Since there are millions of us now, worldwide, and since we all are imperfect people, some whether knowingly or not, whether consciously or not, can and do rub some people the wrong way.  It was much worse 50 years ago when my wife and I first became JWs.  But, happily as an international religious organization we have grown up and for the most part have changed in our approach to fellow human beings, and try to show love toward all.  Believe me, their intentions are good, but some still just don't come across to different people with differing personalities as perhaps they should.  I know there have been times when I may have unintentionally offended someone, but I really try not to be offensive in any way.  I politely tell them the reason for the call and offer (free) the latest magazines, or perhaps a Bible study aid, or in some cases we just have a pleasant conversation with just the Bible, and no literature involved.  Perhaps our magazines aren't your "cup of tea" but I'm always amazed at how the publishers come up with current events that affect most of us.  Especially the Awake!  In our area we've had a few pedophiles on the loose, as I suppose is true in your area as well.  It's become such an issue that the latest Awake! came out with a series of articles on how we can protect our children--in my case my grandchildren--giving really good, practical information.  We had people practically take them out of our hands when they saw the front cover!  The Awake! doesn't deal as much with religious issues (though it does to some extent) but more with what's going on in the world, and practical solutions to various problems.  Millions of people other than JWs love reading them. 

Honestly, when someone tells me they are not interested, I just wish them a nice day and leave.  I'm really sorry about your negative experiences.  Thanks for listening.  Have a nice day!  (LOL).
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11 years ago  ::  Nov 03, 2007 - 6:47PM #35
Posts: 284
To Subtleguy01,

Thanks for the note.  You are probably right about the length of the posts.  The problem is, this is a topic that has so much to it, and requires so much to say to either refute or defend its many segments.  But, I do agree that some would not read it because of the length.  In fact, that may be the situation with you.  Had you read even the first post thoroughly you would well-know my position on "hell-fire".  I absolutely DO NOT accept that teaching, and my posts give the logical, reasonable, and most importantly, the SCRIPTURAL reasons for NOT believing it.  Interestingly, JWs worship their true God, Jehovah, out of LOVE--not FEAR of going to a burning, everlasting fire.  Thanks again!
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11 years ago  ::  Nov 03, 2007 - 7:12PM #36
Posts: 2,593
Previously, this exchange took place between ATL and Palmtree:

ATL: "Nothing was ever stated in the Bible--any part of it-- that Jesus was sent to save us from hell-fire.

Palmtree responded: "You have got to be kidding?"

Jerry: As expected, both ATL and Palmtree have provided bible verses that, concerning Hell, are religiously self serving to both of their theological perspectives. Why am I not surprised in the least? 

ATL suggested: "If you didn't read my first couple of posts, please go back and read them."

Palmtree, becoming quite snarky, responded: "Oh, I read them alright. Perhaps, you can also find some time to read the bible. Believe me, its worth the effort.

Jerry: As an aside, do EC's like Palmtree really think such snarkiness benefits their position in these discussion threads? Then Palmtree provided another irrelevent bible verse, which suggests to me, a former EC and now non-Christian, that both Palmtree and ATL think they know God and the Bible better than the other person.

To this day, I remain amazed that grown and apparently intelligent people reduce their own lives and the lives of others based solely upon how they have been taught by their religion to understand the Bible. It is apparent that ATL, a Bible believing JW, is adamantly dismissed from consideration as a follower of Christ and God by Palmtree, a Bible believing EC. In both of their cases, their religion is merely guessing about what it believes and teaches. Obviously, both ATL and Palmtree have wholeheartedly bought into the teaching of their religion.
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11 years ago  ::  Nov 03, 2007 - 7:39PM #37
Posts: 2,593
Palmtree opines: "It is a good thing when we can agree! However, only those whom the Father has given can be saved." (Palmtree then provided a Bible verse from the GoJ to support his personal religious belief)

Jerry: Of course, this presupposes on Plamtree's part that the GoJ is in any way credible....   :>)
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11 years ago  ::  Nov 03, 2007 - 8:13PM #38
Posts: 2,593
Concerning when humans become accountable to the EC God for their alleged spiritual dirtiness and thusly, whe do they become candidates for Hell, whatever Hell is?, wontgetfooledagain (Rob) wrote: "What is so strange about that is that first....when is the actual 'moment' that we become candidates for our eternal degree(at the University of Hell)?

Jerry: If one listens to some EC denominations, we become candidates once we reach the age of accontability, whatever that age is. For some other EC denominations, they baptize their 6-8 week old babies to insure that they are eternally saved. Typically, once a person reaches the age of 6 and no more than 10, most EC's are convinced that an unregenerated person in that age range will end up eternally separated from God, unless they accept Christ as Lord and are accepted by him as their Lord and thusly, their savior.   

Rob suggests: "Maturing and learning is a gradual could really say that the process never ends until the day we die."

Jerry: In most cases, accepting Christ is a gradual and learned process. Some reputable churches have kept records of how many times a person hears the gospel message before they accept and believe it. On average and depending on the church and location, it works out like this: A person needs to hear the gospel message 25-75 times before they accept and believe it.   

Rob again: "In fact, if you believe in God and we are God's 'children', then it would make sense to me that we never really fully mature until we do die. But here on Earth, I'm not sure you could really define a single moment where we go immediately from innocence to accountability if you ask me. Also, as morbid as this seems, most of the human race would have been better off dying before we ever reached that 'age'."

Jerry: Yet, most of the human race doesn't die before hearing it. Previously and at other threads here, I've asked current and former EC's to tell us how many times they heard the gospel message before they believed it. For those honest enough to answer, the average here matches the average of churches that have kept records.

So, it appears that Hell avoiding faith in Christ comes for many EC's from hearing the gospel message MANY times before finally believing it. I don't see it as faith. I see it as indoctrination.

Perhaps faith is actually just another word for indoctrination?   :>)
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11 years ago  ::  Nov 03, 2007 - 9:36PM #39
Posts: 5,051
From St. John Chrysostom's Paschal Homily:

"By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive.
He embittered it when it tasted His flesh.
And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry:
Hell, said he, was embittered
When it encountered Thee in the lower regions.

It was embittered, for it was abolished.
It was embittered, for it was mocked.
It was embittered, for it was slain.
It was embittered, for it was overthrown.
It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains.
It took a body, and met God face tof ace.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O death, where is thy sting?
O Hell, where is thy victory?

Christ is risen, and thou art overthrown!
Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life reigns!
Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave.
For Christ, being risen from the dead,
Is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.

To Him be glory and dominion
Unto ages of ages.


"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." - Dom Hélder Câmara
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11 years ago  ::  Nov 04, 2007 - 12:25AM #40
Posts: 4,142

Palmtree0 wrote:

It is a good thing when we can agree! However, only those whom the Father has given can be saved.

So, iow's Jerry, we're headed straight for that hell we dont believe in.

Go fig...

"How many broken promises until we get the message, that until we know the equal we will never feel the free?" ~ Jon Anderson
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