Post Reply
Page 1 of 53  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 53 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Discussion: EC's Think Humanity is Spirtually Dirty
7 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2007 - 9:14PM #1
subtleguy01
Posts: 2,593
An EC poster here has written: "just because I don't agree with your (Jerry's) message that appears to be all roads lead to God, and God accepts all beliefs as long as one is sincere, (except evangelical beliefs in the literal truth and inerrency of the bible, apparently) does not mean that I am confused about God."

Jerry: OK.

Another poster continues: "I think the clarity of my message which is that faith in Christ alone, saves...works, do not, number of good acts, good behavior ect..do not. Which brings me to my last point, yet another question you refused to answer: Does God grade on the goodness curve?"

Jerry: OK again. Now we see that some EC's, in this case at least one EC, obviously thinks that God requires some form of human performance.

Another EC poster shares: "If so, How good does one have to be to enter into heaven."

Jerry: How can any human not be good enough to enter into "heaven", whatever "heaven  might be"?

Another EC poster asks: "Does Hitler qualify for heaven, according to your thoelogy? How about Mother Teresa? Where on the goodness scale does Hitler fall? How about mother Teresa? Charles Manson? The 9/11 bombers? How about the person that murdered Jon Benet Ramsey. Where does that person fall on the goodness scale? How about the average human being? How many lies does one have permission from 'god' to tell before they falter on the goodness scale? more than 1? how many acts of infidelity can a person commit before they falter on the goodness scale? Is it only conscience deliberate acts that count? or do thoughts count also?

Jerry: Despite this EC posters assertions to the contrary, I've already answered this silly question many many times. Every person the other poster just identified, as well as every other person who has lived, is living and will ever live, is eternally welcomed into God's heaven, whatever such a heaven might be.

Another poster asks: "How do you know?"

Jerry: Because God, unlike your EC religion, cannot fail.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2007 - 9:52AM #2
OnewayOneLord
Posts: 1,013
[QUOTE=subtleguy01;25629]An EC poster here has written: "just because I don't agree with your (Jerry's) message that appears to be all roads lead to God, and God accepts all beliefs as long as one is sincere, (except evangelical beliefs in the literal truth and inerrency of the bible, apparently) does not mean that I am confused about God."

Jerry: OK.

Another poster continues: "I think the clarity of my message which is that faith in Christ alone, saves...works, do not, number of good acts, good behavior ect..do not. Which brings me to my last point, yet another question you refused to answer: Does God grade on the goodness curve?"

Jerry: OK again. Now we see that some EC's, in this case at least one EC, obviously thinks that God requires some form of human performance.

Another EC poster shares: "If so, How good does one have to be to enter into heaven."

Jerry: How can any human not be good enough to enter into "heaven", whatever "heaven  might be"?

Another EC poster asks: "Does Hitler qualify for heaven, according to your thoelogy? How about Mother Teresa? Where on the goodness scale does Hitler fall? How about mother Teresa? Charles Manson? The 9/11 bombers? How about the person that murdered Jon Benet Ramsey. Where does that person fall on the goodness scale? How about the average human being? How many lies does one have permission from 'god' to tell before they falter on the goodness scale? more than 1? how many acts of infidelity can a person commit before they falter on the goodness scale? Is it only conscience deliberate acts that count? or do thoughts count also?

Jerry: Despite this EC posters assertions to the contrary, I've already answered this silly question many many times. Every person the other poster just identified, as well as every other person who has lived, is living and will ever live, is eternally welcomed into God's heaven, whatever such a heaven might be.

Another poster asks: "How do you know?"

Jerry: Because God, unlike your EC religion, cannot fail.[/QUOTE]

Dear Jerry,

Jerry wrote: in this case at least one EC, obviously thinks that God requires some form of human performance.


OWOL says: I think I have made it abundantly clear that salvation is not based on human performance. You have created your first straw man in your opening post.

Jerry writes: How can any human not be good enough to enter into "heaven",

OWOL:  I don't know Jerry, but for your convienence I have this link below. why don't you watch a few of those videos and get back to me, on why you think that humans are good enough to enter into heaven based on thier own goodness or lack of. Here is the link: http://www.bumfightsdump.com/

Here is another article on teens sport of killing the homeless done by CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/19/homele … index.html

Here is a 3rd link from the  Crimes against Children Research center: http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/factsheet/factsheets.htm

Please explain to us Jerry that if humans are essentially good, why is there all these violent crimes plaging the United states and other parts of the world?

So it is your belief, Jerry that no matter how someone behaves here on earth God will welcome them into heaven? Why would God do that? Isn't it possible that while God cannot fail, humans can and do all the time. Are you not morally outraged by this information I have presented to you, in these articles?  Do you expect God to just over look this? Even if you look at it from the viewpoint: we are all God's children. Do you really expect God not to hold those accountable who deliberatly end the life of another? or deliberatly cause harm to another? Why, or why not? please advise, thank you!  Why is it that you can be morally outraged by this type of behavior, yet God is expected to over look this, according to you? Please advise--thank you! Is it your belief that God simply does not care about these things? please advise!--thank you.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2007 - 11:13AM #3
subtleguy01
Posts: 2,593
OWOL asks: "Please explain to us Jerry that if humans are essentially good, why is there all these violent crimes plaging the United states and other parts of the world?"

Jerry: This is quite curious on your part, OWOL. I have never ever stated that humans "are essentially good". In fact, I've repeatedly stated that being "good" has nothing to do with being accepted and loved by God. It is you, rather than I, who is consumed with the notion that humanity is spiritually dirty and as such, humanity isn't good enough for the God that created it. 

OWOL asks: "So it is your belief, Jerry that no matter how someone behaves here on earth God will welcome them into heaven?"

Jerry: Yes. Human performance has nothing to do with being eternally accepted and loved by God.

OWOL again: "Why would God do that?"

Jerry: Because God, who is infinate, doesn't see good and evil as we finite humans see good and evil.

OWOL again: " Isn't it possible that while God cannot fail, humans can and do all the time."

Jerry: Because God cannot fail, there is nothing humans can do to fail God.

OWOL: "Are you not morally outraged by this information I have presented to you, in these articles?"

Jerry: As a human, I'm always disappointed when people cause harm to other people. However, nothing can occur within humanity unless God, who already foreknows everything, approves and endorses it.  As such, I have to defer to the infinate God who knows everything, rather than my own limited human understanding.

OWOL again: "Do you expect God to just over look this?"

Jerry: Yes. Nothing occurs without God approving and endorsing it. Why would God be surprised with someone for doing something God foreknew, approves and endorses?

OWOL: "Even if you look at it from the viewpoint: we are all God's children. Do you really expect God not to hold those accountable who deliberatly end the life of another?"

Jerry: I've answered this already. Difficult as it is to accept OWOL, God's control of humanity isn't dependent upon our human understanding of good and evil. God does as God chooses to do. 
People do exactly as God already knows they will do. 

OWOL again: "or deliberatly cause harm to another? Why.......,"

Jerry: Again, it is you, rather than I, who sees humanity as spiritually dirty and unpleasing to God. In the examples you provide, you happily present what you think is the very worst of human behavior, while deliberately ignoring the incredibly selfless and loving aspects of human nature. You are a performance driven person, OWOL. You are consumed with a desire to do good works for God. You demand that everyone else perform the same good works as you do for God.

There is no grace in your presentation.  There is only works.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2007 - 12:25PM #4
OnewayOneLord
Posts: 1,013
[QUOTE=subtleguy01;26379]OWOL asks: "Please explain to us Jerry that if humans are essentially good, why is there all these violent crimes plaging the United states and other parts of the world?"

Jerry: This is quite curious on your part, OWOL. I have never ever stated that humans "are essentially good". In fact, I've repeatedly stated that being "good" has nothing to do with being accepted and loved by God. It is you, rather than I, who is consumed with the notion that humanity is spiritually dirty and as such, humanity isn't good enough for the God that created it. 

OWOL asks: "So it is your belief, Jerry that no matter how someone behaves here on earth God will welcome them into heaven?"

Jerry: Yes. Human performance has nothing to do with being eternally accepted and loved by God.

OWOL again: "Why would God do that?"

Jerry: Because God, who is infinate, doesn't see good and evil as we finite humans see good and evil.

OWOL again: " Isn't it possible that while God cannot fail, humans can and do all the time."

Jerry: Because God cannot fail, there is nothing humans can do to fail God.

OWOL: "Are you not morally outraged by this information I have presented to you, in these articles?"

Jerry: As a human, I'm always disappointed when people cause harm to other people. However, nothing can occur within humanity unless God, who already foreknows everything, approves and endorses it.  As such, I have to defer to the infinate God who knows everything, rather than my own limited human understanding.

OWOL again: "Do you expect God to just over look this?"

Jerry: Yes. Nothing occurs without God approving and endorsing it. Why would God be surprised with someone for doing something God foreknew, approves and endorses?

OWOL: "Even if you look at it from the viewpoint: we are all God's children. Do you really expect God not to hold those accountable who deliberatly end the life of another?"

Jerry: I've answered this already. Difficult as it is to accept OWOL, God's control of humanity isn't dependent upon our human understanding of good and evil. God does as God chooses to do. 
People do exactly as God already knows they will do. 

OWOL again: "or deliberatly cause harm to another? Why.......,"

Jerry: Again, it is you, rather than I, who sees humanity as spiritually dirty and unpleasing to God. In the examples you provide, you happily present what you think is the very worst of human behavior, while deliberately ignoring the incredibly selfless and loving aspects of human nature. You are a performance driven person, OWOL. You are consumed with a desire to do good works for God. You demand that everyone else perform the same good works as you do for God.

There is no grace in your presentation.  There is only works.[/QUOTE]

A. So  it is your belief, Jerry that no matter how someone behaves here on earth God will welcome them into heaven?"

Jerry: B. Yes. Human performance has nothing to do with being eternally accepted and loved by God.

OWOL: A. How long is it going to be, Jerry before you realize html fonts don't work?

OWOL B: How would you describe the characteristics of your god,  and if you wouldn't mind juxtapose that to your own beliefs and characteristics--thank you.


Jerry said: As a human, I'm always disappointed when people cause harm to other people.

OWOL: Um.....OK, Is the god you worship also disappointed when other people cause harm to other people?  Would you say that your beliefs are reflective of god's beliefs as well?

Jerry said: God's control of humanity isn't dependent upon our human understanding of good and evil.

OWOL: Define what you mean by control of humanity. thank you. Where do you think our understanding of good and evil comes from (its origins) if not from God, Please explain--thank you.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2007 - 2:02PM #5
subtleguy01
Posts: 2,593
OWOL: "How would you describe the characteristics of your god, and if you wouldn't mind juxtapose that to your own beliefs and characteristics--thank you."

Jerry: God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. God has always been and God will always be. God's ways are unfathomable to us mere mortals. God always does as God wishes to do. Everything that happens within the human creation is foreknown, approved and fully endorsed by God. 

OWOL again: "Um.....OK, Is the god you worship also disappointed when other people cause harm to other people?"

Jerry: No. It is impossible for a human to disappoint an omnisicient, omnipresent and omnipotent God. 

OWOL again: "Would you (Jerry) say that your beliefs are reflective of god's beliefs as well?"

Jerry: Why would that matter? God doesn't answer to any of us. God does as God pleases. 

OWOL asks: "Define what you mean by control of humanity."

Jerry: Nothing occurs outside of the foreknowledge of God. As such, everything that occurs is foreknown, approved and endorsed by God.

Actually, as far as God is concerned, we aren't born yet, we are born and we are already dead. The path of any human life is totally singular, with it's beginning and end already fully know by God before any person is ever born. Nothing that occurs during a persons life comes as a surprise to God.   

OWOL suggests: "Where do you think our understanding of good and evil comes from (its origins) if not from God,"

Jerry: God's ways are unfathomable to us mere mortals. There is nothing any human can do to change the plan of God, or to understand how God is using everything in IT's creation for IT's own good pleasure. You are confused because you think God is reactive, that is, you see God having to constantly put out the fires of IT's human creation. You see the fires as evil. I see the fires as a necessary part of God's perfect plan for humanity.   

I can't help but notice OWOL that you see God as a Santa Claus kind of entity. You have a Santa Claus theology. You know, God's making a list and checking it twice to see who's been naughty or nice. You're still hung up on works, instead of simply admiring God for who God is.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2007 - 12:25PM #6
OnewayOneLord
Posts: 1,013
[QUOTE=subtleguy01;26379]OWOL asks: "Please explain to us Jerry that if humans are essentially good, why is there all these violent crimes plaging the United states and other parts of the world?"

Jerry: This is quite curious on your part, OWOL. I have never ever stated that humans "are essentially good". In fact, I've repeatedly stated that being "good" has nothing to do with being accepted and loved by God. It is you, rather than I, who is consumed with the notion that humanity is spiritually dirty and as such, humanity isn't good enough for the God that created it. 

OWOL asks: "So it is your belief, Jerry that no matter how someone behaves here on earth God will welcome them into heaven?"

Jerry: Yes. Human performance has nothing to do with being eternally accepted and loved by God.

OWOL again: "Why would God do that?"

Jerry: Because God, who is infinate, doesn't see good and evil as we finite humans see good and evil.

OWOL again: " Isn't it possible that while God cannot fail, humans can and do all the time."

Jerry: Because God cannot fail, there is nothing humans can do to fail God.

OWOL: "Are you not morally outraged by this information I have presented to you, in these articles?"

Jerry: As a human, I'm always disappointed when people cause harm to other people. However, nothing can occur within humanity unless God, who already foreknows everything, approves and endorses it.  As such, I have to defer to the infinate God who knows everything, rather than my own limited human understanding.

OWOL again: "Do you expect God to just over look this?"

Jerry: Yes. Nothing occurs without God approving and endorsing it. Why would God be surprised with someone for doing something God foreknew, approves and endorses?

OWOL: "Even if you look at it from the viewpoint: we are all God's children. Do you really expect God not to hold those accountable who deliberatly end the life of another?"

Jerry: I've answered this already. Difficult as it is to accept OWOL, God's control of humanity isn't dependent upon our human understanding of good and evil. God does as God chooses to do. 
People do exactly as God already knows they will do. 

OWOL again: "or deliberatly cause harm to another? Why.......,"

Jerry: Again, it is you, rather than I, who sees humanity as spiritually dirty and unpleasing to God. In the examples you provide, you happily present what you think is the very worst of human behavior, while deliberately ignoring the incredibly selfless and loving aspects of human nature. You are a performance driven person, OWOL. You are consumed with a desire to do good works for God. You demand that everyone else perform the same good works as you do for God.

There is no grace in your presentation.  There is only works.[/QUOTE]

A. So  it is your belief, Jerry that no matter how someone behaves here on earth God will welcome them into heaven?"

Jerry: B. Yes. Human performance has nothing to do with being eternally accepted and loved by God.

OWOL: A. How long is it going to be, Jerry before you realize html fonts don't work?

OWOL B: How would you describe the characteristics of your god,  and if you wouldn't mind juxtapose that to your own beliefs and characteristics--thank you.


Jerry said: As a human, I'm always disappointed when people cause harm to other people.

OWOL: Um.....OK, Is the god you worship also disappointed when other people cause harm to other people?  Would you say that your beliefs are reflective of god's beliefs as well?

Jerry said: God's control of humanity isn't dependent upon our human understanding of good and evil.

OWOL: Define what you mean by control of humanity. thank you. Where do you think our understanding of good and evil comes from (its origins) if not from God, Please explain--thank you.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2007 - 2:02PM #7
subtleguy01
Posts: 2,593
OWOL: "How would you describe the characteristics of your god, and if you wouldn't mind juxtapose that to your own beliefs and characteristics--thank you."

Jerry: God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. God has always been and God will always be. God's ways are unfathomable to us mere mortals. God always does as God wishes to do. Everything that happens within the human creation is foreknown, approved and fully endorsed by God. 

OWOL again: "Um.....OK, Is the god you worship also disappointed when other people cause harm to other people?"

Jerry: No. It is impossible for a human to disappoint an omnisicient, omnipresent and omnipotent God. 

OWOL again: "Would you (Jerry) say that your beliefs are reflective of god's beliefs as well?"

Jerry: Why would that matter? God doesn't answer to any of us. God does as God pleases. 

OWOL asks: "Define what you mean by control of humanity."

Jerry: Nothing occurs outside of the foreknowledge of God. As such, everything that occurs is foreknown, approved and endorsed by God.

Actually, as far as God is concerned, we aren't born yet, we are born and we are already dead. The path of any human life is totally singular, with it's beginning and end already fully know by God before any person is ever born. Nothing that occurs during a persons life comes as a surprise to God.   

OWOL suggests: "Where do you think our understanding of good and evil comes from (its origins) if not from God,"

Jerry: God's ways are unfathomable to us mere mortals. There is nothing any human can do to change the plan of God, or to understand how God is using everything in IT's creation for IT's own good pleasure. You are confused because you think God is reactive, that is, you see God having to constantly put out the fires of IT's human creation. You see the fires as evil. I see the fires as a necessary part of God's perfect plan for humanity.   

I can't help but notice OWOL that you see God as a Santa Claus kind of entity. You have a Santa Claus theology. You know, God's making a list and checking it twice to see who's been naughty or nice. You're still hung up on works, instead of simply admiring God for who God is.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2007 - 7:30PM #8
purplecrow
Posts: 136
Responding to the opening post:

An EC poster here has written: "just because I don't agree with your (Jerry's) message that appears to be all roads lead to God, and God accepts all beliefs as long as one is sincere, (except evangelical beliefs in the literal truth and inerrency of the bible, apparently) does not mean that I am confused about God."

Jerry: OK.

PC says: Your message makes perfect sense Jerry, if it is that all paths lead to God and God accepts everyone who calls. The one who claims that there is only one path to God knows God only one way.

Another poster continues: "I think the clarity of my message which is that faith in Christ alone, saves...works, do not, number of good acts, good behavior ect..do not. Which brings me to my last point, yet another question you refused to answer: Does God grade on the goodness curve?"

Jerry: OK again. Now we see that some EC's, in this case at least one EC, obviously thinks that God requires some form of human performance.

PC says: Yes Jerry, it appears that this EC obviously thinks that God requires "faith" as that particular form of human performance. I argue that there are requirements for acceptance by "God", or the Ultimate Source, and that faith is the least of the requirements. Without works there is no exhibition of the faith; one can have all the faith in the world, but if it stands alone - like a banker with no cash - then they are sure not to get far. These persons think that doing good and treating others as well as they themselves want to be treated is hogwash; they leave actions behind and grasp tight on the reigns of "faith", which is literally within their own mind and no one elses. These are the souls who fail to evolve life-cycle after life-cycle and are thereby condemned to the eternal torture of hell on earth and disallowed to progress toward union with God because of their refusal to purify their person and soul on all levels of being.

Another EC poster shares: "If so, How good does one have to be to enter into heaven."

Jerry: How can any human not be good enough to enter into "heaven", whatever "heaven might be"?

PC says: Heaven is the place where previously self-tortured souls have earned the right to live eternity in peace after having gained control of themselves in all aspects of life - they are no longer self-tortured for they have seen the massive nature of God; they have brought an end to the recycled living of hell on earth.

Another EC poster asks: "Does Hitler qualify for heaven, according to your thoelogy? How about Mother Teresa? Where on the goodness scale does Hitler fall? How about mother Teresa? Charles Manson? The 9/11 bombers? How about the person that murdered Jon Benet Ramsey. Where does that person fall on the goodness scale? How about the average human being? How many lies does one have permission from 'god' to tell before they falter on the goodness scale? more than 1? how many acts of infidelity can a person commit before they falter on the goodness scale? Is it only conscience deliberate acts that count? or do thoughts count also?

Jerry: Despite this EC posters assertions to the contrary, I've already answered this silly question many many times. Every person the other poster just identified, as well as every other person who has lived, is living and will ever live, is eternally welcomed into God's heaven, whatever such a heaven might be.

PC says: Yes Jerry, I agree that every one of these persons is eternally welcomed into God's heaven - however, this is after they have achieved purification of their soul during many life-cycles. It can be that each of these persons is now experiencing another life-chance at achieving union with God. They each have the opportunity time and time again; it is hoped that they will each achieve that goal. There is no "one chance only" with God; even the bible shares with us that fact.

Another poster asks: "How do you know?"

Jerry: Because God, unlike your EC religion, cannot fail.

PC says: That's the bottom line Jerry: God cannot fail. It amazes me to think that some people actually think that God does fail. It is an idea beyond me. God simply cannot fail --- that's why Its God and not Human!

S, PC.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2007 - 8:08PM #9
wontgetfooledagain
Posts: 5,472
The title of this thread is the very thing that I find terribly wrong with religion. It poisons the mind. Through no fault of our own, we are taught that we are born as 'crap' because of this so called 'original sin'. So then we live our lives in shame and unworthy of life...but God gave it to us anyway so we must get on our knees for 'him'. We are then told that we can only get into heaven based on beliefs, because after all, we are just pieces of sh#t who don't deserve anything...so good works that we do mean nothing without the correct 'belief' or 'thoughts'. And if we don't believe the correct way we are damned to eternal hell. It is the Orwellian idea of the 'thought police' taken to the worst extreme. What nonsense.

These are horrible lies to put into the brains of children. I really do think that is a form of child abuse. Religion is nothing more than mind control. So many people live their lives in utter shame, fear and guilt because of these destructive messages. It is time we shed these ideas of ancient superstitious men, which were born in the infancy of the human race. Let's just hope we can collectively mature as a race before it is too late.
Quick Reply
Cancel
7 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2007 - 8:31AM #10
OnewayOneLord
Posts: 1,013
OWOL: Where do you think our understanding of good and evil comes from (its origins) if not from God,"

Jerry wrote:: God's ways are unfathomable to us mere mortals. There is nothing any human can do to change the plan of God, or to understand how God is using everything in IT's creation for IT's own good pleasure. You are confused because you think God is reactive, that is, you see God having to constantly put out the fires of IT's human creation. You see the fires as evil. I see the fires as a necessary part of God's perfect plan for humanity

OWOL: that isn't what I asked Jerry. I asked you where you think our (societies) understanding of good and evil comes from (its origins) if not from God. How do you explain the moral outrage by society at things like Pedophilia, Murder, Rape, and things like that if they aren't reflections of how God feels also? Why do you think that god endorses these? approves of them,?  Does your god control everything you do, Jerry, from what time you wake up in the morning to what time you go to bed? Are you saying that there is no personal accountability for the things you do or not do? That you are a puppet on a string whom god controls every second, and every decision?  Also where do you get your information about God? Is there another source aside from your brain? Please advise!

Jerry said: You're still hung up on works, instead of simply admiring God for who God is.

OWOL said: I cannot admire your idea of  god who approves of and endorses all forms of evil, Jerry, like you do apparently. I cannot admire your idea of god who does not care about humans like your god apparently does not care about the human race. I cannot admire your idea of god Jerry, who is so cold, so insensitive, so cruel, so self centered,  so calloused,   as the god you have described, Jerry.
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 53  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 53 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook