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10 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2007 - 11:34AM #1
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
I owe you an apology. I understand how my tone could be taken as attacking you. That was not my intent.

I only want to understand where you stand better.

I will confess that I do not like Messianic Judaism. It seems unfair to me. I had to sacrifice so much and go through so much turmoil in order to convert to Judaism -- while Messianics adopt Jewish traditions and call themselves "Jews" without having to go through the same thing.

I had to havea drop of blood pricked from my penis, for God's sake!!!!!

So, that's a source of bitterness.

Anyhow, I naturally resent Christians who claim to be "pefected Jews" (thank you Ann Coulter) and I really resent "Messianic Jews" -- especially those not Jewish born -- who meld Jewish ritual with Christian belief and then look down on us for being inferior.

What I wanted to find out from you is how you view those who do not share your faith. Do you believe that Jews are inferior for not accepting the messiah you believe in? Do you believe that we will suffer any punishment or miss out on any blessing for not accepting Yeshua as messiah?

Christians who believe that salvation is available only to those who explicitly believe in Jesus as their savior cannot help but consider those who do not share that faith to be inferior and wicked -- such is history for the past 1700 years. Many Yeshuites (a much better term than 'Messianic Jew') I've encountered share that belief.

I'm just curious where you personally stand so I know how to respond to you. I know how to handle Adelphe and Malka and Lilley and Yiramiyahu etc. I don't understand you. I'd like you to be a friend and not an enemy.

So, again, I'm sorry for my tone. :-(
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10 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2007 - 4:06PM #2
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,932
BS"D

nieciedo wrote:

I owe you an apology. I understand how my tone could be taken as attacking you. That was not my intent.

I only want to understand where you stand better.

I will confess that I do not like Messianic Judaism. It seems unfair to me. I had to sacrifice so much and go through so much turmoil in order to convert to Judaism -- while Messianics adopt Jewish traditions and call themselves "Jews" without having to go through the same thing.

I had to havea drop of blood pricked from my penis, for God's sake!!!!!

So, that's a source of bitterness.

Anyhow, I naturally resent Christians who claim to be "pefected Jews" (thank you Ann Coulter) and I really resent "Messianic Jews" -- especially those not Jewish born -- who meld Jewish ritual with Christian belief and then look down on us for being inferior.

What I wanted to find out from you is how you view those who do not share your faith. Do you believe that Jews are inferior for not accepting the messiah you believe in? Do you believe that we will suffer any punishment or miss out on any blessing for not accepting Yeshua as messiah?

Christians who believe that salvation is available only to those who explicitly believe in Jesus as their savior cannot help but consider those who do not share that faith to be inferior and wicked -- such is history for the past 1700 years. Many Yeshuites (a much better term than 'Messianic Jew') I've encountered share that belief.

I'm just curious where you personally stand so I know how to respond to you. I know how to handle Adelphe and Malka and Lilley and Yiramiyahu etc. I don't understand you. I'd like you to be a friend and not an enemy.

So, again, I'm sorry for my tone. :-(



Thank you for elaborating on the source of conflict.  I was born a Jew, a son of priests, but your pedigree as a convert is superior to mine as it derives directly from Abraham, the first Jew.  So your words carry much weight after this revelation IMHO.

And as one who has been formally trained in my faith (both academically and traditionally), I have to complement you on the depth of your knowledge of yiddishkeit.  I have known many Jewish souls who never attained in a lifetime the information that your routinely post.

The fact that you seek to reconcile with one whom you perceive to have offended demonstrates more in-depth yiddishkeit than any confession of faith or any pedigree IMHO.

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10 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2007 - 11:31AM #3
UFRETR
Posts: 226
[QUOTE=nieciedo;24324]I owe you an apology. I understand how my tone could be taken as attacking you. That was not my intent.

I only want to understand where you stand better.

I will confess that I do not like Messianic Judaism. It seems unfair to me. I had to sacrifice so much and go through so much turmoil in order to convert to Judaism -- while Messianics adopt Jewish traditions and call themselves "Jews" without having to go through the same thing.[/quote]

nieciedo, I don't holding grudges against you so don't worry =)  Like I've been saying since I started posting years ago:  It's not my place to condemn anyone because their beliefs are not like mine.  That's up to G-d not to me or anyone.  I personally dislike when people send 'people to hell' just because they happen to disagree with them.  That's wrong and you'll not hear that coming out of my mouth or see me posting it here or anywhere else. 

About your 'sacrifice', IMO when things are doing willingly and with the joy that you're doing the right thing, it shouldn't be taken as a sacrifice but as a delight.  But that's just IMO

[QUOTE]I had to havea drop of blood pricked from my penis, for God's sake!!!!!

So, that's a source of bitterness.[/QUOTE]

I'm going to share this with you.  When I was a kid and up to my teenage years I knew that there was something wrong with me and I had the conviction that it needed to be changed.  I never got circumcized or had a Bar Mitzvah, etc..  Have you ever tried to perform that procedure yourself?  I tried, at least twice.  You want to talk about bleeding? LOL!  I finally got it done when I got my hernia surgery.  I wanted it done! So I spoke to the doctor, who happened to be Jewish, told him my story and he was happy to do it for me.  Maybe he wasn't a mohel but he knew the bracha...LOL!  I bled of course but I had absolutely no pain during my recovery.  So I felt that just that was a sign from HaShem that I did the right thing.  I feel almost whole now and that is because I never had a Bat Mitzvah and I think I'm too old for that now =(  I get to read from the Torah every now and then, though =) 

So if we go that route, having blood pricked from your penis is not as bad as having the whole thing done. =)  I know it doesn't matter to you anyway cause of my beliefs, but I'm happy I had it finally done without mutilating myself...LOL!

[QUOTE] Anyhow, I naturally resent Christians who claim to be "pefected Jews" (thank you Ann Coulter) and I really resent "Messianic Jews" -- especially those not Jewish born -- who meld Jewish ritual with Christian belief and then look down on us for being inferior.[/QUOTE]

I can tell you right now that we, in our congregation and in most MJ congregations I've visited or that we have contact with, don't have that practice of looking at non-Messianic Jews down becuase they chose not to believe in Yeshua.  G-d forbid!  Are we better than anybody else to look at people over the shoulder?  Of course not!  Maybe some people do especially those not born Jewish, but that's not an acceptable practice.  My Rabbi will personally call you up on that if he finds out you're doing it.  Neither is to do the same to Christians because of their unacceptance of Torah and their mistaken doctrines and practices.  I have my views in that respect and disagree to the core with the very existence of Christianity, but I'll never look down at any Christian.

[QUOTE] What I wanted to find out from you is how you view those who do not share your faith. Do you believe that Jews are inferior for not accepting the messiah you believe in? [/QUOTE]

Nope!

[QUOTE] Do you believe that we will suffer any punishment or miss out on any blessing for not accepting Yeshua as messiah? [/QUOTE]

To be honest, that's a subject that is up to G-d, not up to me.  So I don't judge one thing or the other.  That is something very personal and between G-d and the person and none of us has a say about this.

[QUOTE]Christians who believe that salvation is available only to those who explicitly believe in Jesus as their savior cannot help but consider those who do not share that faith to be inferior and wicked -- such is history for the past 1700 years. Many Yeshuites (a much better term than 'Messianic Jew') I've encountered share that belief.[/QUOTE]

I can say that those who don't share our belief in Messiah Yeshua is because they haven't received that particular revelation, but I would never say that they're inferior and wicked or even think that.  Just that this hasn't been revealed to them, that's all.  I don't think this could be in any way insulting or degrading.  For me, ALL Israel, MJs or not, are the apple of G-d's eye and still sons of the covenant.

[QUOTE] I'm just curious where you personally stand so I know how to respond to you. I know how to handle Adelphe and Malka and Lilley and Yiramiyahu etc. I don't understand you. I'd like you to be a friend and not an enemy.

So, again, I'm sorry for my tone. :-([/QUOTE]

You can be sure that I'm not your enemy.  Those Jews who have been posting for years on the old forum are my witnesses =)  So no worries...hang loose...=P

Ufretr
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10 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2007 - 11:58AM #4
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
Thank you for your reply. I'm glad that there are no hard feelings.

[QUOTE=UFRETR;27890]
I can say that those who don't share our belief in Messiah Yeshua is because they haven't received that particular revelation, but I would never say that they're inferior and wicked or even think that.  Just that this hasn't been revealed to them, that's all.  I don't think this could be in any way insulting or degrading.  For me, ALL Israel, MJs or not, are the apple of G-d's eye and still sons of the covenant.[/quote]

This, however, raises many more questions.

If, as you believe, "Yeshua" really was the Messiah and believing in him is important, then why hasn't this revelation been made available to everyone? Why have only some been given whatever spiritual insight is required to read Tanakh and find "Yeshua" there? What do believers in Yeshua get that the rest of us do not? Is this not essentially the same as predestination -- God has elected some to receive this revelation and withheld it from others?

Now, I do not believe in revelation -- I don't believe that God is an Other that keeps secrets and only doles out information to some people in some places and times. Rather, revelation is to me an inward process of discovery.

Thus, I can accept that the Jewish revelation is valid for Jews, that the Christian revelation is valid for Christians, that the Muslim revelation is valid for Muslims, etc. But no one of them is objectively true, which would render the others false. God cannot be limited, described, or fully understood -- all we can to is try to approach God as best we can through metaphor, myth, and symbol. One set of such symbols will not necessarily be meaningful to everyone. Some find the Jewish system meaningful; some find the Christian system. Some people, like you, apparently find a mixture of the two meaningful.

Dave Sim, the author of the Cerebus graphic novels, decided that a mixture of Judaism, Christianity and Islam was (for him at least) the true religion!

That I can accept. That's why I can respect Christianity as an equally valid covenantal relationship with God.

What I cannot accept is those who claim that their faith is the only valid covenantal relationship, those who believe that their beliefs come directly from God and that anyone who differs from them is mistaken and incorrect.

Because whenever people come to believe that their religion alone is correct, the inevitable result is the belief that they or their community are superior to those who disagree, that God favors them more, that those who disagree are wicked and evil.

History confirms this a thousand times over.



You can be sure that I'm not your enemy.  Those Jews who have been posting for years on the old forum are my witnesses =)  So no worries...hang loose...=P

Ufretr[/QUOTE]
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10 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2007 - 5:35PM #5
howiedds
Posts: 2,689
I will confess that I do not like Messianic Judaism. It seems unfair to me. I had to sacrifice so much and go through so much turmoil in order to convert to Judaism -- while Messianics adopt Jewish traditions and call themselves "Jews" without having to go through the same thing.

I had to havea drop of blood pricked from my penis, for God's sake!!!!!


So, that's a source of bitterness.

As just an aside, and with an appreciation of what Nieciedo went through and means by it, the above is what I think happened in the 1st century when Paul went to the gentiles with the Jewish message of a parent God and salvation at the end of history. I think those that were opposed to him, often thought by many to be the Jews, who were preaching that to join the fellowship one had to be Jewish, were actually recent converts to Judaism (other than the confrontation at the Apostolic Council when he got back to Jerusalem).

I can picture them making a similar post here, complaining, "Now that I had the surgery and gave up my lifestyle which included cheesburgers, you Paul, have the nerve to say I could have joined the fellowship, received the same encouraging, hopeful message of  a parent God and salvation without the surgery and the diet changes? Secrew that. They better convert to Judaism first before they join the fellowship."

No offense intended, Nieciedo. I think it is a perfectly reasonable reaction, and I wasn't involving you in the conclusions I made about the enemies of Paul. It was just an off the topic observation.
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10 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2007 - 5:52PM #6
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
No, I think that's a fair assessment, Howie.

This theory, though, requires the belief that only Jews will have access to the parent God and salvation at the end of history and that one had better become a Jew or else one will miss the boat. That would explain the urgency to spread the message far and wide and would justify a change in the message that would make it easier for Gentiles to accept (all the promises of the covenant but without inconvenient things like circumcision and kashrut).

However, such a belief doesn't appear in the Tanakh. There is no indication that only Jews will participate in the Messianic Age and the World-To-Come. All the prophecies about the Messianic Kingship and such feature Israel as one nation among many. The new Temple will be a house of prayer for all peoples, the nations will come to Jerusalem to celebrate Sukkot, nation shall not lift up sword against nation.

Where did they get the idea that everyone needed to join the covenant or else?
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10 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2007 - 6:05PM #7
UFRETR
Posts: 226
[QUOTE=nieciedo;27936]Thank you for your reply. I'm glad that there are no hard feelings.



This, however, raises many more questions.

If, as you believe, "Yeshua" really was the Messiah and believing in him is important, then why hasn't this revelation been made available to everyone? [/QUOTE]

Well, it's there available to all.  Some accept it; Some don't.

[QUOTE] Why have only some been given whatever spiritual insight is required to read Tanakh and find "Yeshua" there? What do believers in Yeshua get that the rest of us do not? [/QUOTE]

Again, because we chose to. It's a matter of personal choice. 

[QUOTE] Is this not essentially the same as predestination -- God has elected some to receive this revelation and withheld it from others?[/QUOTE]

I don't believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination.  Calvin was a strong anti-semite.  However,the fact that G-d elect people above others for whichever the purpose He has is all over the Tanakh.  Not Ishmael but Yitzchak; Not Esav but Ya'akov; Not Korah but Aharon; Not Shaul but David, etc., etc., etc. 

I'm going to quote a fragment of a prayer (actually my favorite prayer) that is recited in every synagogue (Jewish or MJ) worldwide every Shabbat and 3 times a day during the daily services.  This prayer talks about G-d's election:

It is our duty to praise the Master of all, to acclaim the
greatness of the One
who forms all creation. For God did not make us
like the nations of other
lands, and did not make us the same as other
families of the Earth. God did
not place us in the same situations as others, and
our destiny is not the same
as anyone else's.
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10 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2007 - 6:09PM #8
UFRETR
Posts: 226
I understand your point but I want to make clear that I do not and will never look down at anyone because of their faith.  The same way, I'll like to be treated.  after all v'ahavta l'recha kamocha...:)
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10 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2007 - 6:36PM #9
howiedds
Posts: 2,689
Nieciedo:

I went ahead and threw the thread off it's path. I didn't mean to. But as long as the damage is done,:)

This theory, though, requires the belief that only Jews will have access to the parent God and salvation at the end of history and that one had better become a Jew or else one will miss the boat.

I think that Paul believed the end was nigh and that the gentiles had not heard the message of a parent God, a prescription for righteousness as was contained in the written and oral teachings  of the Jews, and the promise of a resurrection at the end of history.  By not being Jewish, it's not that they were not worthy of that "reward," only that they were not aware of it and the role of justice, mercy, and right living in achieving it by repairing the world. I did not mean to imply that they could not act righteously without being Jewish, only that they hadn't heard the plan.
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10 years ago  ::  Oct 29, 2007 - 9:56AM #10
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
[QUOTE=UFRETR;28575]Well, it's there available to all.  Some accept it; Some don't.



But the problem is that it's not. Belief in Jesus/Yeshua as Messiah is not evident from the Tanakh. One can only contrive arguments supporting his candidacy as Messiah by starting with the presumption that he actually was the Messiah and then picking and choosing and reinterpreting verses in Tanakh to justify it.

That is how the Church proceeded. They experienced God acting in Jesus and assumed then that he must have been the Messiah because they were expecting a Messiah to deliver them from Rome and had no other category in which to put him. In order to justify and explain this, then they went back to the Tanakh and tried to find support for their belief in it. This required in many cases attributing a secret spiritual meaning to some things (defeating Israel's enemies became defeating sin), attributing other things to a "second coming" (the bits about world peace and universal justice, swords into plowshares and no more hunger or thirst or shadow of death, etc.), and then just plain making stuff up (like deciding that the "suffering servant" is not the Jewish people but the Messiah and therefore Jesus).

A rational person, taking first the Tanakh and then comparing the Christian Scriptures against, cannot conclude that Yeshua fits the bill. The only way one can believe that Yeshua fulfills any of the Hebrew Scriptures is if you start off believing in him and then try to find him in the Tanakh.

Some denominations of Christians admit as much: the Scriptures, they believe, can only be properly understood in the light of the Holy Spirit and that is only available to those who have put their faith in Jesus. Only those with the eye of faith can see the Scriptures as God intends them to be understood. The Catholic Church has a similar teaching: it is the Magisterium of the Church, which derives its authority from Jesus and it's insight from Tradition and the Holy Spirit, that interprets Scripture and therefore they believe that their Christocentric understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures is correct. Those outside the Church have their eyes veiled to the truth -- hence the controversial Good Friday prayer for the conversion of Jews.

The bottom line is that Jesus/Yeshua as the fulfillment of the Hebrew Scriptures is not obvious or rationally conclusive. It is only through faith that one can believe such -- so either that faith must come from outside (granted by God only to an elect group and withheld from others) or it comes from within the person in which case there is no reason other  than personal choice to consider it correct.

I'm going to quote a fragment of a prayer (actually my favorite prayer) that is recited in every synagogue (Jewish or MJ) worldwide every Shabbat and 3 times a day during the daily services.  This prayer talks about G-d's election:



A Messianic should not recite Aleinu because he is not part of the people who are set apart and chosen as the first paragraph asserts.

And then there's the second paragraph: "And thus we hope in You, Eternal One our God, that we may soon see the splendor of Your might to remove idolatry from the earth, that false gods will be utterly destroyed, to repair the world in the sovereignty of the Almighty....

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