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6 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2008 - 8:25PM #11
Softsilk
Posts: 495

arctic.she.wolf wrote:

I dont understand why people feel they have to make a sacrifice for lent. If you are going to make a sacrifice why not make it all year, or permenent? Like a new years resolution. Why do it for just lent? And what is the history of this 'tradition'? Did they make a sacrifice during lent after Jesus died?



so I'll assume you didn't read my post #4 because most of your questions can find answers therein. when I meet another person's faith tradition and have a question or two about how it works within that tradition, I don't usually start off with a demanding sound to my questions. funny about that type of thing: it makes the listener suspect the person wants to shoot 'em down rather than earnestly gain information and expand their consciousness. I'm sure I can be excused for not bothering to answer ill-put questions. perhaps someone else is more accommodating than I am and will take on your questions replete with attitude. but just in case you really want to start a tussle because you have issues with christianity and you think that we might be easy pickings...be forewarned. we're not easy. we pick our teeth with the bones of people who push us rudely and who have hidden agendas...or at least I do. now scat! or come up with legitimate questions that you really want to know the answers too.

Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction. --  Albert Einstein
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2008 - 11:51PM #12
arctic.she.wolf
Posts: 10
[QUOTE=softsilk;272531]so I'll assume you didn't read my post #4 because most of your questions can find answers therein. when I meet another person's faith tradition and have a question or two about how it works within that tradition, I don't usually start off with a demanding sound to my questions. funny about that type of thing: it makes the listener suspect the person wants to shoot 'em down rather than earnestly gain information and expand their consciousness. I'm sure I can be excused for not bothering to answer ill-put questions. perhaps someone else is more accommodating than I am and will take on your questions replete with attitude. but just in case you really want to start a tussle because you have issues with christianity and you think that we might be easy pickings...be forewarned. we're not easy. we pick our teeth with the bones of people who push us rudely and who have hidden agendas...or at least I do. now scat! or come up with legitimate questions that you really want to know the answers too.[/QUOTE]

I am a Christian, and I did read your number 4, and you seem to be reading "attitude" into my quesitons, but they are genuine and honest quesitons. I wonder if you should give up your hostility for lent. I know this will probly be removed and that is ok, because this is one of the reasons I stopped comeing around before. If you think my quesitons are "ill-put" that is your perception and your hostility over your own perception is very unbecoming of a Christian. I'm starting to think if this is what other Christians are like I would rather not associate with them or even be called one, lest others think I'm as hostile as you are, and for no reason at all.

You speak of holiness, but I see it is not evident in your post. You have damaged your witness for the Christ you say you follow.

Like I said, I wonder why people ONLY give up somethign for lent and not for ever, as if it is only for lent, it is only a temporary sacrifice. If you really want to work to holiness, then why not give up something forever, like quitting smoking or some other sin like unwarranted hostility.

Stardove, I'm sorry, but my life is peaceful and i want to keep it that way. I came here to learn and to converse and have some fellowship but I see that coming to beliefnet was a mistake. I wish you all the best, you have been very warm and kind not only to me, but to others in the adverse circumstances of this place.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 3:18AM #13
elisa9511
Posts: 760

arctic.she.wolf wrote:

I dont understand why people feel they have to make a sacrifice for lent. If you are going to make a sacrifice why not make it all year, or permenent? Like a new years resolution. Why do it for just lent? And what is the history of this 'tradition'? Did they make a sacrifice during lent after Jesus died?


The Meaning of Lent




The Lenten Season is observed for 40 days, beginning on Ash Wednesday and extending to midnight on the day before Easter, omitting Sundays. The first Sunday of Lent is called Passion Sunday and the Last Sunday is Palm Sunday. The week preceding Easter is called Holy Week.


The original meaning of Lent is “Holy Spring”. It is a time of preparation. It is a time to prepare themselves for Easter by asking God to forgive them their failures and by repenting your sins. It a time of year that the Early Church instructed new converts in theology and church doctrine to prepare them for Baptism that would take place on Easter. Consequently it was both a time of learning about the Christian faith as well as a time of self-examination and soul-searching that included repentance, self-denial, prayer, and fasting.


The Lenten season is a time for new beginnings and a time of spiritual renewal. It is a time to forsake evil in our lives and turn back to God. It is also a time to reflect on Christ’s journey to the cross ending at the Resurrection.


Lent is more than Carnaval or Fiesta it is a reaffirmation of your faith in God.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 11:59AM #14
Softsilk
Posts: 495

arctic.she.wolf wrote:

I am a Christian, and I did read your number 4, and you seem to be reading "attitude" into my quesitons, but they are genuine and honest quesitons. I wonder if you should give up your hostility for lent. I know this will probly be removed and that is ok, because this is one of the reasons I stopped comeing around before. If you think my quesitons are "ill-put" that is your perception and your hostility over your own perception is very unbecoming of a Christian. I'm starting to think if this is what other Christians are like I would rather not associate with them or even be called one, lest others think I'm as hostile as you are, and for no reason at all.

You speak of holiness, but I see it is not evident in your post. You have damaged your witness for the Christ you say you follow.

Like I said, I wonder why people ONLY give up somethign for lent and not for ever, as if it is only for lent, it is only a temporary sacrifice. If you really want to work to holiness, then why not give up something forever, like quitting smoking or some other sin like unwarranted hostility.

Stardove, I'm sorry, but my life is peaceful and i want to keep it that way. I came here to learn and to converse and have some fellowship but I see that coming to beliefnet was a mistake. I wish you all the best, you have been very warm and kind not only to me, but to others in the adverse circumstances of this place.




nope. it doesn't work the way you described it just because you describe it that way. the more posts one reads here at beliefnet the easier it is to detect attitude in questions. trust me, honey. you've got attitude problems.

for example, you say you are a christian. yet you put quote marks around tradition. here's the reality: every faith journey HAS a tradition. to use the word tradition and then put quote marks around it indicates a hesitancy in acknowledging the fact of tradition; it's a hedge. why would you hedge? tradition is tradition.

second example, I cruised for other posts that you have made and find today you posting the precise words you posted on another thread that I read last night: "blah blah blah...and that's why I don't come here anymore."

er. so why are you here? okay. that's an aside. my first response is: so you have animosity pointed at your posts often? often enough that you think you should withdraw from such a hostile environment...and er YOU think WE have the problem? ohmygosh. how self-serving is THAT attitude?!

Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction. --  Albert Einstein
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 12:12PM #15
Softsilk
Posts: 495
fyi on the history/tradition of lent

40 days, the bible reports, that Jesus spent in the dessert immediately after his baptism by John

40 hours he spent in the tomb

40 is also a significant number in the Jewish tradition; which Jesus and his apostles were extremely respectful of; but I have no knowledge of how that plays into this same 40 for lent; I am sure it does; and probably wikipedia could tell me quickly enough; but then I didn't ask the question; you Arctic She Wolf did; this information is out there...if you sincerely wanted to know, why didn't you just google it for yourself?

the EARLIEST christians who were coming INTO the church, called catechumists, were originally given 40 hours of instruction...called proselytizing (the CORRECT use of that word btw)

by the 2nd century, Irenaeus wrote about the tradition of preparing for easter but he did not specify length of time (40 hours or 40 days) which suggest that if this church father was referring to the event, it was a common practice

from the 300s and then finalized by the 600s, the length of lenten preparation officially expanded to 40 days from the original 40 hours...by consent of participants. the church grows and changes with each generation...just like a living body does; despite what folks OUTSIDE of the church think (that things are dictated to us. what foolishness!) each member of the church and the entire collection labor together to bring about clarity and focus on God and his son, Jesus. considering how beyond us God is...2000 years of tradition still isn't enough; expect more clarity in the future generations

now what does this history have to do with today? exactly how does it add to our preparation time now in 2008? or was this a spear being thrown to see if a bubble could be burst? if the bubble is protected by the holy spirit, do you Arctic She Wolf sincerely believe it will burst?

~~~

oh. and the obvious: we can NOT stay underground/in the tomb or in the desert year round. 40 days is enough for the desert experience. and 40 hours is certainly enough for a tomb experience...speaking METAPHORICALLY of course.

can we truly be consciously penitent year round? duh.

so again the nature of that question Arctic She Wolf indicates that you wanted to throw a spear far more than you were seeking earnest information.
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction. --  Albert Einstein
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 5:26PM #16
Stardove
Posts: 15,172
Maggie and Elisa, thank you both for the explanations of Lent.

I believe what we may be dealing with is different denominations of Christianity. Being raised up as a Southern Baptist Lent was not a part of my church experience. As an adult and a member of Unity Church Lent was a part of that church experience.

It wasn't until Unity that I actually experienced the 40 days of Lent for the first time, although I was baptised at age ten.

Forty is also a number meaning completion when used in the Bible which might be another reason forty days is used. :)
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 9:52PM #17
Softsilk
Posts: 495
Stardove your post reinforces what I was starting to suspect: different groups of christianity. because I thought all christians knew about lent; so assumed, then, that the questions were to spark a tumble. perhaps then Arctic She Wolf was sincere in her questions. well. finally the basics on the history of lent came forward; but I was fairly reluctant even as I was typing. so now I'm glad that I shared the details; and of course, Elisa kindly posted first on the details

I swannee. I truly thought by now everybody knew about lent. well. learn something every day.

~~~

ALTHOUGH oh if only I could edit my previous post...for all time now, I have it that Jesus spent 40 days in the dessert (with whipped cream?!) but of course we all know that he spent that time in the desert. *sigh* obviously I was typing too fast. silly me.
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction. --  Albert Einstein
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 10:40PM #18
Stardove
Posts: 15,172

softsilk wrote:

Stardove your post reinforces what I was starting to suspect: different groups of christianity. because I thought all christians knew about lent; so assumed, then, that the questions were to spark a tumble. perhaps then Arctic She Wolf was sincere in her questions. well. finally the basics on the history of lent came forward; but I was fairly reluctant even as I was typing. so now I'm glad that I shared the details; and of course, Elisa kindly posted first on the details

I swannee. I truly thought by now everybody knew about lent. well. learn something every day.

~~~

ALTHOUGH oh if only I could edit my previous post...for all time now, I have it that Jesus spent 40 days in the dessert (with whipped cream?!) but of course we all know that he spent that time in the desert. *sigh* obviously I was typing too fast. silly me.




When I was growing up only the Southern Baptists were going to make it to Heaven. Hope that particular belief has changed with time. ;) No offense intended to any Southern Baptists. This is still my mom's church and I love her dearly. She doesn't believe the first sentence anymore.

Jesus might have enjoyed some dessert with whipped cream while in the desert.
Maybe Satan tempted Jesus with [COLOR=black]Devil's Food Cake. [/COLOR]:)

Beliefnet Community Wide Moderator ~ Peace Love Stardove
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 11:21PM #19
Softsilk
Posts: 495
hmmm. time to teach me something. I appreciate your posts Stardove and llittlebit. I grew up in a very sheltered environment but (fortunately in my mind) with the knowledge that God loves us dearly and offers salvation to everyone who has a good heart and who follows their conscience with care...which is just about everybody.

salvation itself means something particular to me however...somewhat related to the usual way of thinking (i.e. heaven) but far greater than that: unity of our best selves with Absolute Love...something no one truly wants to block themselves from, imo

what I don't get after reading y'alls two posts however is the suggestion that Arctic She Wolf is a Southern Baptist or did I read too much into y'alls posts? and if she IS Southern Baptist, then based on y'alls responses she may HAVE a prejudice against those-not-Southern-Baptist...so wouldn't that in fact support my original response thinking that she had an attitude going on in her original post?

obviously y'all cannot speak for Arctic She Wolf but if you know her and know what her faith tradition is then you might be able to address my current question: did she have an attitude in her original post or not?

sincerely asked.

~~~~

llittlebit, as always, I thank those who kindly offer prayers on my behalf. but why did my response surprise you? okay. you don't have to answer that question. sincerely. it's just that there are a few ideas floating around in this last series on this thread that makes me suspect that I might be missing something that everyone else seems to have a clear understanding about. or IS it clear to others what Arctic She Wolf's true intention in her original post was/is? maybe others just think they know what she truly meant.   but maybe y'all have misread her words/intention. why would I be the only one to see a certain level of animosity in her questions after your and Stardove's acknowledgment about Southern Baptists attitude toward other faiths? can you see where my confusion stands?

which one is it: was she straightforward in her original questions? or was she prejudiced and looking to put-down a christian tradition of which (I suppose) she did not approve?

very sincerely asked,
Maggie
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction. --  Albert Einstein
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 11:45PM #20
k-bearsmom
Posts: 1,716
Maggie...
I read her post exactly as you did....I simply got "here" later than you and Elisa and your descriptions were perfect...(concerning Lent).

mea culpa....but I am ALWAYS suspect concerning queries posted as that particular one was.:(
And I also live in a realm wherein I believed everyone knew about the lenten season,

What really puzzles me and has a tendency to raise my hackles is when a poster just jumps in...reads one post and then goes off on some "seemingly" vituperative tangent!

Ah well and ***sigh*** perhaps the strangeness of cyberspace..............................
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