Important Announcement

See here for an important message regarding the community which has become a read-only site as of October 31.

 
Post Reply
Page 1 of 2  •  1 2 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Circuit Court Rules on Diocese of Quincy
4 years ago  ::  Sep 10, 2013 - 6:06PM #1
RJMcElwain
Posts: 3,013


www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/news_reports/...

What next?
Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Sep 10, 2013 - 7:20PM #2
Dutch777
Posts: 9,144

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong --- I'm not a lawyer --- but doesn't the news account indicate that the property is deeded and titled to the congregational trustees ?   If so, this would appear an anomaly; usually the diocese holds deed and title in trust for the National Church. 


If deed and title are held by the trustees of the local congregation, then it would appear that they clearly own the assets at the local level.  Nicht wahr ?

The Path
To Moon
lake
Doesn't Go
There.

So Walk
Your own
DharmaPath
And Be
Mindful

Dutch
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Sep 11, 2013 - 12:33AM #3
AnglicanFirst
Posts: 440

You're not reading it wrong.  Simply, the worm has turned.  Louisiana, South Carolina, Texas, Illinois, who's next?  The Dennis Cannon, ill advised, and under suspicion of having been legally passed, is being realized as simply a property grab, designed to punish any who wish to leave TEC, in order to prevent more from leaving TEC.


I'm having a hard time appreciating the leadership of TEC who wish to punish any who want to leave TEC.  Isn't that like the time the Soviet Union built the Berlin wall?  Tell me what's different, if there is any difference.


And don't give me this heirarchical baloney.  TEC is heirarchical as far upwards as the diocesan bishop.  Beyond that, there is the General Convention, which owns no property, KJS being very frustrated about that.


I really do hope the TEC leadership understands the sea change in legal matters and begins to negotiate rather than litigate.


Grant

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Sep 11, 2013 - 11:57AM #4
RJMcElwain
Posts: 3,013

Sep 11, 2013 -- 12:33AM, AnglicanFirst wrote:


You're not reading it wrong.  Simply, the worm has turned.  Louisiana, South Carolina, Texas, Illinois, who's next?  The Dennis Cannon, ill advised, and under suspicion of having been legally passed, is being realized as simply a property grab, designed to punish any who wish to leave TEC, in order to prevent more from leaving TEC.


I'm having a hard time appreciating the leadership of TEC who wish to punish any who want to leave TEC.  Isn't that like the time the Soviet Union built the Berlin wall?  Tell me what's different, if there is any difference.


And don't give me this heirarchical baloney.  TEC is heirarchical as far upwards as the diocesan bishop.  Beyond that, there is the General Convention, which owns no property, KJS being very frustrated about that.


I really do hope the TEC leadership understands the sea change in legal matters and begins to negotiate rather than litigate.


Grant





Grant,


As is suggested in the article, appeal is a near certainty. I don't think this is the first case to go to appeal. I still have a problem with understanding how this is any different than an individual deciding he/she is not happy with the Church and walks out. In this and other cases, a bunch of people made the decision to leave, but that should not give them the right to take the silverware or anything else with them.


It wasn't a 100% decision. I think the Dennis Canon will prevail. But, like many others, I'm getting tired of the whole thing.

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Sep 13, 2013 - 1:10AM #5
AnglicanFirst
Posts: 440

RJ, why is it difficult for you to agree that the person who holds the deed owns the property?


Grant


PS:  I'm more tired of it than you are because it has affected me personally.  My wife's (ex lux perpetua) children wanted to give a significant memorial to her at our little church.  But we didn't know whether I would be taking her ashes out of the Columbarium if TEC won the suit against the diocese.  If TEC won the suit, all priests and bishops of the diocese having been excommunicated, most of our parish members would move with our priest to a friendly Methodist church temporarily, and St. Paul's would go dark.  A new TEC priest would find a handful of members unable to pay the bills.  Isn't that silly?  St. Paul's didn't go dark because the Texas Supreme Court was wise.  And the memorial goes forward, a $50K upgrade to our pipe organ, incidentally.

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Sep 13, 2013 - 10:33AM #6
RJMcElwain
Posts: 3,013

Sep 13, 2013 -- 1:10AM, AnglicanFirst wrote:


RJ, why is it difficult for you to agree that the person who holds the deed owns the property?


Grant


PS:  I'm more tired of it than you are because it has affected me personally.  My wife's (ex lux perpetua) children wanted to give a significant memorial to her at our little church.  But we didn't know whether I would be taking her ashes out of the Columbarium if TEC won the suit against the diocese.  If TEC won the suit, all priests and bishops of the diocese having been excommunicated, most of our parish members would move with our priest to a friendly Methodist church temporarily, and St. Paul's would go dark.  A new TEC priest would find a handful of members unable to pay the bills.  Isn't that silly?  St. Paul's didn't go dark because the Texas Supreme Court was wise.  And the memorial goes forward, a $50K upgrade to our pipe organ, incidentally.




You hit the point exactly. It's about the title. But is the title in the name of the congregation, the Diocese or The Church through trust? That's what the Dennis Canon is all about. A very good friend of mine and I have been arguing this point for a few years now. He agrees with you, that the Dennis Canon will be thrown out. I don't think so.

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Sep 13, 2013 - 11:50AM #7
AnglicanFirst
Posts: 440

RJ, what the Dennis Canon is silent about is the very legal standing of property ownership.  Who has the deed?  Deeds didn't exchange hands because of the Dennis Canon.  In our diocese, the bishop has all the deeds.  Yes, the church is heirarchical, but just to the level of the diocese bishop.  Above the level of the diocese bishop, the church is an amalgamation of dioceses, no matter how much KJS wants to be an archbishop.  That's my point of view, but I recognize that others have diffferent opinions.


Grant

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Sep 13, 2013 - 11:56AM #8
RJMcElwain
Posts: 3,013

Sep 13, 2013 -- 11:50AM, AnglicanFirst wrote:


RJ, what the Dennis Canon is silent about is the very legal standing of property ownership.  Who has the deed?  Deeds didn't exchange hands because of the Dennis Canon.  In our diocese, the bishop has all the deeds.  Yes, the church is heirarchical, but just to the level of the diocese bishop.  Above the level of the diocese bishop, the church is an amalgamation of dioceses, no matter how much KJS wants to be an archbishop.  That's my point of view, but I recognize that others have diffferent opinions.


Grant




Grant,


Last night, my friend and I had this exact same argument over Scotch and cigars. He made the same points you've made, and I said "let's see what the appeals bring.Wink

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2015 - 7:28PM #9
Nino0814
Posts: 1,795
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2015 - 9:08PM #10
RJMcElwain
Posts: 3,013

Mar 4, 2015 -- 7:28PM, Nino0814 wrote:


www.religionnews.com/2015/03/04/breakawa...




Nino,


It seems the legal tide is reversing on this issue. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out in the long run. Right now, I have no idea which philosophy will prevail.

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 2  •  1 2 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook