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Switch to Forum Live View Fox News Op-Ed Says Women’s Nature Is To Be Dominated By Men
2 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 11:52AM #1
TPaine
Posts: 9,380
Fox News has published another sexist op-ed by Suzanne Venker, the author who became infamous for attacking a fictional “War on Men.” In the follow up piece, Venker argues that women are naturally men’s inferiors.

The author believes the crudest of crude gender stereotypes are built into male and female brains, arguing that women “like to gather and nest and take care of people” while men “are hunters: they like to build things and kill things.” As a consequence, she maintains a man’s place is in the office; “his” woman should simply “surrender” to his rule: More at Link
"The genius of the Constitution rests not in any static meaning it might have had in a world that is dead and gone, but in the adaptability of its great principles to cope with current problems and current needs." -- Justice William Brennan: Speech to the Text and Teaching Symposium at Georgetown University (October 12, 1985)
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 12:26PM #2
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

In the broad sense, the stereotypes might hold. (Men being "hunters" women being "gatherers")


But, what baffles me, is Venker uses that to go on to the non-sequitor that women should be submissive and meek.


In the household, I think it's actually a bit of the opposite. As I've always put it, any man who has ever been married to a woman, knows damn well who is really in charge. Wink


In some ways, my wife and I fit the stereotypes, so to speak, quite literally. 


I'm an avid hunter -- much of the family's food comes in the form of the game meat I hunt, kill, pack out of the field and butcher for the freezer. My wife is a natural "gatherer" -- she loves to garden and shop.


Also, I tend toward reason and strict linear logic in my thinking, whereas she tends more toward intuition and "feeling" things. I'm more esoteric and aloof around strangers, my wife is warm, friendly and chatty with everybody. 


However, she is not the least bit mousey or submissive, she has a strong personality, and was a succesful single parent and head of her own household for years before we met. We make decisions together. 


Furthermore, while I tend to work on the vehicles, any home improvement that involves carpentry or power tools is my wife's area. She was delighted when we found a great deal on a new skill saw for her at the local hardware store -- as excited as I ever saw her get over jewlrey or a new pair of shoes.  She's great at fixing or building things, I couldn't build a birdhouse. 


Also, as a side note, there are three boys and two girls in our blended family, but it is my oldest step-daughter -- not any of the boys -- who has shown the greatest interest in joining me in shooting and hunting. 


So, anyway, I do think there are some general differences between men and women, but gender roles are flexible, and neither sex has to "submit" to the other. The sexes compliment and support one another, IMO.

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 12:36PM #3
Erey
Posts: 18,940

I read your article and the corresponding Fox news article and I have to say I don't have the same conclusions you do.  I don't get where the author is saying women are inferior. 


Now, i don't agree with everything this woman says.  I do definately agree that for most women they do indeed like more of the nesting and men more of the hunting.  There are plenty of people that don't fit that mold but it does not make the genrality any less true. 


I think most mothers do crave to be at home with thier small children, in fact I know they do.  Putting career on hold to raise children does not make you anti-woman.  In fact you should check your own heart where you are on the subject.  Taking your husband's last name does not make you June Cleaver.    I do think GENERALLY there are bio/brain/hormonal differnces between the two sexes, this is not a bad thing.


I read the article where the author says men and women ARE EQUAL but NOT the same.  I think this is true. 


 


I don't agree with her suggestion that you "don't have to tell the man you are as good as he is at the job".  No reason to be demure.  I also think women should have some sort of career or back up or something up their sleeve in case they are obligated due to unforseen circumstances to work outside of the home even though they planned to stay home.  I just think a woman needs to be prepared, and that prepardness is probably best for the marraige. 


I do think women should put their marriage and families first and not feel bad or conflicted about that.  I think men typically have to put their ability to provide for thier family above their ability to emotionaly or time-wise put their family first.  These are generalities but being generalities are true to that sense. 


 


I believe in the long run a woman is happier or more fulfilled with a sucessfull marriage and a loving home life than she might be climbing the corporate ladder.  I think men are more apt to need a mix of both, career sucess and family sucess. 


 


This is how my family opperates.  My husband has the main job and the main income.  Some years I match him, some years I am half his income.  He is definately and hands-on available father.  He has been given job opportunities to make twice his income but would involve heavy travel.  He has declined those opportunities.  However I do all the Dr. visits, the grocery shopping (starting to hate that), the various meetings, the picking kids up and dropping them off.  It works pretty well for us.  Although I am happy to make money I would personally be unhappy if the family depended on my ability to be the primary income earner.  That would put alot of stress on me.  This is stress he bears pretty well so I let him.    I think generally I have a feminie mind-set and feminine needs and he is rather masculine.  He really is more of a hunter, I can't stop myself from reading recipies.    I am a big support to him and he is my rock. 


 


Iam not knocking anyone elses choices or situations.  I will say some women I know do indeed resent being the primary bread winner.  They don't want that role. 

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 12:46PM #4
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Dec 7, 2012 -- 12:36PM, Erey wrote:


I read your article and the corresponding Fox news article and I have to say I don't have the same conclusions you do.  I don't get where the author is saying women are inferior. 


Now, i don't agree with everything this woman says.  I do definately agree that for most women they do indeed like more of the nesting and men more of the hunting.  There are plenty of people that don't fit that mold but it does not make the genrality any less true. 


I think most mothers do crave to be at home with thier small children, in fact I know they do.  Putting career on hold to raise children does not make you anti-woman.  In fact you should check your own heart where you are on the subject.  Taking your husband's last name does not make you June Cleaver.    I do think GENERALLY there are bio/brain/hormonal differnces between the two sexes, this is not a bad thing.


I read the article where the author says men and women ARE EQUAL but NOT the same.  I think this is true. 


 


I don't agree with her suggestion that you "don't have to tell the man you are as good as he is at the job".  No reason to be demure.  I also think women should have some sort of career or back up or something up their sleeve in case they are obligated due to unforseen circumstances to work outside of the home even though they planned to stay home.  I just think a woman needs to be prepared, and that prepardness is probably best for the marraige. 


I do think women should put their marriage and families first and not feel bad or conflicted about that.  I think men typically have to put their ability to provide for thier family above their ability to emotionaly or time-wise put their family first.  These are generalities but being generalities are true to that sense. 


 


I believe in the long run a woman is happier or more fulfilled with a sucessfull marriage and a loving home life than she might be climbing the corporate ladder.  I think men are more apt to need a mix of both, career sucess and family sucess. 


 


This is how my family opperates.  My husband has the main job and the main income.  Some years I match him, some years I am half his income.  He is definately and hands-on available father.  He has been given job opportunities to make twice his income but would involve heavy travel.  He has declined those opportunities.  However I do all the Dr. visits, the grocery shopping (starting to hate that), the various meetings, the picking kids up and dropping them off.  It works pretty well for us.  Although I am happy to make money I would personally be unhappy if the family depended on my ability to be the primary income earner.  That would put alot of stress on me.  This is stress he bears pretty well so I let him.    I think generally I have a feminie mind-set and feminine needs and he is rather masculine.  He really is more of a hunter, I can't stop myself from reading recipies.    I am a big support to him and he is my rock. 


 


Iam not knocking anyone elses choices or situations.  I will say some women I know do indeed resent being the primary bread winner.  They don't want that role. 




Speaking in general terms, I think you are dead on. And it sounds as if the roles in your household break down in a very similar manner as they do in mine.


I think in a way, "feminism" so to speak, wasn't so much about making women true equals, so much as it was pushing them to be "equal" to men, by doing everything men do.


In many cases, I don't think that's "equality" at all -- it's just asking girls/young women to either give up or feel ashamed of their feminiity while, ironically, glorifying all the masculine qualities. 


I'm very comfortable being a man. My wife is very comfortable being a woman. My step-daughter, who likes to shoot guns, hunt and play sports still has strong feminine qualities and an obvioulsy strong maternal instinct -- and should not be made ashamed of that. 

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 1:01PM #5
REteach
Posts: 14,731

Ah.  This might explain why men on Fox get to dress like professionals and women get to dress like professional...hookers. 

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 1:08PM #6
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Dec 7, 2012 -- 1:01PM, REteach wrote:


Ah.  This might explain why men on Fox get to dress like professionals and women get to dress like professional...hookers. 




Female news ancors in general seemed to be presented primarily for their looks. 


Fox's journalistic faults might be many, but when it comes to putting up a pretty face (and some T&A), Fox is hardly the only one doing it. 

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 1:33PM #7
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,370

Dec 7, 2012 -- 1:01PM, REteach wrote:


Ah.  This might explain why men on Fox get to dress like professionals and women get to dress like professional...hookers. 





Ah yes, we have gone back to the 50s where a woman that wears a short skirt or shows cleavage is a whore. Geesh, don't those women know that they should be covered from wrist to ankle. Undecided

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 1:55PM #8
Erey
Posts: 18,940

Dec 7, 2012 -- 12:46PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Dec 7, 2012 -- 12:36PM, Erey wrote:


I read your article and the corresponding Fox news article and I have to say I don't have the same conclusions you do.  I don't get where the author is saying women are inferior. 


Now, i don't agree with everything this woman says.  I do definately agree that for most women they do indeed like more of the nesting and men more of the hunting.  There are plenty of people that don't fit that mold but it does not make the genrality any less true. 


I think most mothers do crave to be at home with thier small children, in fact I know they do.  Putting career on hold to raise children does not make you anti-woman.  In fact you should check your own heart where you are on the subject.  Taking your husband's last name does not make you June Cleaver.    I do think GENERALLY there are bio/brain/hormonal differnces between the two sexes, this is not a bad thing.


I read the article where the author says men and women ARE EQUAL but NOT the same.  I think this is true. 


 


I don't agree with her suggestion that you "don't have to tell the man you are as good as he is at the job".  No reason to be demure.  I also think women should have some sort of career or back up or something up their sleeve in case they are obligated due to unforseen circumstances to work outside of the home even though they planned to stay home.  I just think a woman needs to be prepared, and that prepardness is probably best for the marraige. 


I do think women should put their marriage and families first and not feel bad or conflicted about that.  I think men typically have to put their ability to provide for thier family above their ability to emotionaly or time-wise put their family first.  These are generalities but being generalities are true to that sense. 


 


I believe in the long run a woman is happier or more fulfilled with a sucessfull marriage and a loving home life than she might be climbing the corporate ladder.  I think men are more apt to need a mix of both, career sucess and family sucess. 


 


This is how my family opperates.  My husband has the main job and the main income.  Some years I match him, some years I am half his income.  He is definately and hands-on available father.  He has been given job opportunities to make twice his income but would involve heavy travel.  He has declined those opportunities.  However I do all the Dr. visits, the grocery shopping (starting to hate that), the various meetings, the picking kids up and dropping them off.  It works pretty well for us.  Although I am happy to make money I would personally be unhappy if the family depended on my ability to be the primary income earner.  That would put alot of stress on me.  This is stress he bears pretty well so I let him.    I think generally I have a feminie mind-set and feminine needs and he is rather masculine.  He really is more of a hunter, I can't stop myself from reading recipies.    I am a big support to him and he is my rock. 


 


Iam not knocking anyone elses choices or situations.  I will say some women I know do indeed resent being the primary bread winner.  They don't want that role. 




Speaking in general terms, I think you are dead on. And it sounds as if the roles in your household break down in a very similar manner as they do in mine.


I think in a way, "feminism" so to speak, wasn't so much about making women true equals, so much as it was pushing them to be "equal" to men, by doing everything men do.


In many cases, I don't think that's "equality" at all -- it's just asking girls/young women to either give up or feel ashamed of their feminiity while, ironically, glorifying all the masculine qualities. 


I'm very comfortable being a man. My wife is very comfortable being a woman. My step-daughter, who likes to shoot guns, hunt and play sports still has strong feminine qualities and an obvioulsy strong maternal instinct -- and should not be made ashamed of that. 




I do think feminism should be about equal opportunity.  Women should feel secure in choosing a career or choosing a partner to play more of the domestic role.  Just because a generality is true there are always those that don't fit the mold - they should be encouraged also. 


I have seen women on this board, self-described feminists derride or demean a woman who has focused on family - that is feminism at it's worst. 


Equal opportunity to smash glass ceilings or define your own family.  Just the fact is most women are going to be happier raising a family with a man who can support the family and provide them the opportunity to be more available to home life.  Just because most women might prefer to scale back career wise to raise their families does not mean all women want this or need this. 

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 2:02PM #9
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Dec 7, 2012 -- 1:55PM, Erey wrote:


Dec 7, 2012 -- 12:46PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Dec 7, 2012 -- 12:36PM, Erey wrote:



 


I do think feminism should be about equal opportunity.  Women should feel secure in choosing a career or choosing a partner to play more of the domestic role.  Just because a generality is true there are always those that don't fit the mold - they should be encouraged also. 


I have seen women on this board, self-described feminists derride or demean a woman who has focused on family - that is feminism at it's worst. 


Equal opportunity to smash glass ceilings or define your own family.  Just the fact is most women are going to be happier raising a family with a man who can support the family and provide them the opportunity to be more available to home life.  Just because most women might prefer to scale back career wise to raise their families does not mean all women want this or need this. 




I completely agree. 


There are women who love being CEOs, combat marines, whatever. There are also men who are in perfect bliss being a pre-school teacher or stay-at-home dad.


Gender roles should not define anybody.


But, at the same time, I agree, in general, many women are happy raising a family, and should not be ashamed of that 

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 3:14PM #10
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

I find it interesting how the Neanderthals at fox like to make sweeping statements about everyone.


You know if she likes to be dominated go for it, Maybe she is into S & M too, by all means she is welcome to satisfy her urges will consenting partners, but don't speak for all women world wide. Women are not less than men no matter how badly some men want it that way. 


And I am very tired of the people at fox and and their cult followers trying to drive this country back into the dark ages.


The only women who would think she wants to be dominated by men are abuse victims, that have been so badly abused and brainwashed, they do not know any better. 


 


They need to keep their perverse fetishes to themselves.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
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