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Switch to Forum Live View Two Sides of The Coin
3 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 10:34PM #1
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Edited this post and placed it in post #4.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 11:24PM #2
Ed_3
Posts: 500

(I have edited this thread where my first example is about predation. Also, I changed the original first example to the second example in this thread and trimmed down some of the words in that example.)


Interestingly, I noticed that there seems to be two sides to the coin of certain scriptures or scriptual concepts held by JWs.

An example is the scriptural concept held by JWs that all animals were originally created as safe and docile herbivores and that dangerous predators are a Satanic perversion of God's original intentions for all animals...and which is so removed from God's thinking and God's design.


And to support this concept, JWs go by Genesis 1:29-30:

29 And God went on to say: “Here I have given to YOU all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To YOU let it serve as food. 30 And to every wild beast of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving upon the earth in which there is life as a soul I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it came to be so.


 


And another scripture that JWs use to support this concept is Isaiah 11:6-9...

6 And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. 7 And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. 8 And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. 9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.



where JWs view these scriptures as showing that one day, Jehovah will restore all animals to being safe and docile herbivores.


However, the other side of the coin of this can be found at Psalms 104:21...

21 The maned young lions are roaring for the prey
And for seeking their food from God himself.



and Job 38:1-5 and 39-41...

1 And Jehovah proceeded to answer Job out of the windstorm and say:

2 “Who is this that is obscuring counsel
By words without knowledge?

3 Gird up your loins, please, like an able-bodied man,
And let me question you, and you inform me.

4 Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth?
Tell [me], if you do know understanding.

5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched out upon it the measuring line?

39 Can you hunt prey for a lion itself
And can you satisfy the lively appetite of young lions,

40 When they crouch in the hiding places,
[Or] keep lying in the covert for an ambush?

41 Who prepares for the raven its food
When its own young ones cry to God for help,
[When] they keep wandering about because there is nothing to eat?



which all show that predation is a provision for animals by God...and is not an evil and foreign concept to God, which was created by Satan.


Therefore, can JWs explain the two sides to the coin of this scriptural concept? Because certainly, I don't understand it.


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3 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 11:47PM #3
Kemmer
Posts: 17,004

And can you satisfy the lively appetite of young lions,



Certainly.  And the fatter you were the better.  Wink

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2012 - 5:40AM #4
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Another example is the reasons that the Bible states as to why the cities and the inhabitants of the cities of 'Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them' were reduced ashes.

And one reason that the Bible gives is in Jude 1:6-7 which clearly states that it was because of sexual conduct that those cities were destroyed. Also, 2 Peter 2:4-8 verifies this.


Additonally, Ezekiel 16:49-50 reveals another reason as to why the cities and the inhabitants of the city of 'Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them' were destoryed:




49 Look! This is what proved to be the error of Sod´om your sister: Pride, sufficiency of bread and the carefreeness of keeping undisturbed were what happened to belong to her and her dependent towns, and the hand of the afflicted one and the poor one she did not strengthen. 50 And they continued to be haughty and to carry on a detestable thing before me, and I finally removed them, just as I saw [fit].






Therefore, in additon to the sexual conduct of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, the people in general were proud and haughty and chose not to assist the afflicted and the poor of those cities.

However, in looking at the other side of the coin on this, I noticed that according to Genesis 19;12-14...




12 Then the men said to Lot: “Do you have anyone else here? Son-in-law and your sons and your daughters and all who are yours in the city, bring out of the place! 13 For we are bringing this place to ruin, because the outcry against them has grown loud before Jehovah, so that Jehovah sent us to bring the city to ruin.” 14 Hence Lot went on out and began to speak to his sons-in-law who were to take his daughters, and he kept on saying: “Get up! Get out of this place, because Jehovah is bringing the city to ruin!” But in the eyes of his sons-in-law he seemed like a man who was joking.






the only reason why Lot's sons-in-laws(his daughters' financés) were destoryed in the city of Sodom...was because they thought that Lot was joking when he said that Jehovah was bringing the city to ruin. And it wasn't because sexual misconduct on their part...nor was it because they were proud and haughty and chose not to assist the afflicted and the poor people of the city. Because if they were, then it's not likely that the angels would have offered them a chance to escape the city. Therefore, the two reasons that the Bible states as to why Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them were destoyed...don't seem to apply to Lot's two sons-in-laws.



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3 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 7:35PM #5
Kemmer
Posts: 17,004

Therefore, in additon to the sexual conduct of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, the people in general were proud and haughty and chose not to assist the afflicted and the poor of those cities.



In the ancient world of very strict class stucture, without any modern social services, every other city in the civilized world was no different from Sodden and Gonorrhea.  Incidently, has anyone even found where these supposed cities were?  If so, modern techniques could certianly discover if, when, and how they "were reduced to ashes".


the only reason why Lot's sons-in-laws(his daughters' financés) were destoryed in the city of Sodom...was because they thought that Lot was joking when he said that Jehovah was bringing the city to ruin. And it wasn't because sexual misconduct on their part...



Man, I bet the JWs could take the story of Red Ridinghood and explain the wolf's death at the hands of the hunter as a result of his crossdressing in granny clothes, infuriating the hunter who was a redneck homophobe.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 7:59PM #6
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Jun 6, 2012 -- 7:35PM, Kemmer wrote:


Therefore, in additon to the sexual conduct of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, the people in general were proud and haughty and chose not to assist the afflicted and the poor of those cities.



In the ancient world of very strict class stucture, without any modern social services, every other city in the civilized world was no different from Sodden and Gonorrhea.  Incidently, has anyone even found where these supposed cities were?  If so, modern techniques could certianly discover if, when, and how they "were reduced to ashes".



It's my understanding that the 'remains' are under either the Red Sea or the Dead Sea.




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3 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 8:03PM #7
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,150

Ed, just curious, why do you even attempt?  Tongue Out


Ed, since JW's have their beliefs rather well-defined, I'd like to ask you where you stand on the Bible as God's word, if you don't mind.  Inspired?  Take it literally (i.e. WT is wrong about dinosaurs thread)? 

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2012 - 11:27PM #8
Kemmer
Posts: 17,004

It's my understanding that the 'remains' are under either the Red Sea or the Dead Sea.



Suuuuure they are.  Safe from examination.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 9:55AM #9
Ed_3
Posts: 500

Jun 2, 2012 -- 11:24PM, Ed_3 wrote:


(I have edited this thread where my first example is about predation. Also, I changed the original first example to the second example in this thread and trimmed down some of the words in that example.)


Interestingly, I noticed that there seems to be two sides to the coin of certain scriptures or scriptual concepts held by JWs.

An example is the scriptural concept held by JWs that all animals were originally created as safe and docile herbivores and that dangerous predators are a Satanic perversion of God's original intentions for all animals...and which is so removed from God's thinking and God's design.


And to support this concept, JWs go by Genesis 1:29-30:

29 And God went on to say: “Here I have given to YOU all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To YOU let it serve as food. 30 And to every wild beast of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving upon the earth in which there is life as a soul I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it came to be so.


 


And another scripture that JWs use to support this concept is Isaiah 11:6-9...

6 And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. 7 And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. 8 And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. 9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.



where JWs view these scriptures as showing that one day, Jehovah will restore all animals to being safe and docile herbivores.


However, the other side of the coin of this can be found at Psalms 104:21...

21 The maned young lions are roaring for the prey
And for seeking their food from God himself.



and Job 38:1-5 and 39-41...

1 And Jehovah proceeded to answer Job out of the windstorm and say:

2 “Who is this that is obscuring counsel
By words without knowledge?

3 Gird up your loins, please, like an able-bodied man,
And let me question you, and you inform me.

4 Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth?
Tell [me], if you do know understanding.

5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched out upon it the measuring line?

39 Can you hunt prey for a lion itself
And can you satisfy the lively appetite of young lions,

40 When they crouch in the hiding places,
[Or] keep lying in the covert for an ambush?

41 Who prepares for the raven its food
When its own young ones cry to God for help,
[When] they keep wandering about because there is nothing to eat?



which all show that predation is a provision for animals by God...and is not an evil and foreign concept to God, which was created by Satan.


Therefore, can JWs explain the two sides to the coin of this scriptural concept? Because certainly, I don't understand it.



Knowsnothing, sorry about not answering your questions, but I wanted to ask Newtonian or any other JW how they or the Watchtower Society explain the above scriptures.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 12:39PM #10
Kemmer
Posts: 17,004

41 Who prepares for the raven its food When its own young ones cry to God for help, [When] they keep wandering about because there is nothing to eat?



Were the raven chicks Jewish or Christian?

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