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Switch to Forum Live View Toronto Islamic school removes parts of curriculum from website casting Jews as ‚Äėtreacherous,‚Äô...
2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 1:42PM #41
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,350

Miraj


You can continue to ignore what your fellow Muslims preach, publish, and broadcast, but it really does not change the fact that there are large numbers of your fellow Muslims who are preaching, publishing and broadcasting a version of Islam which is antithetical to your vision of Islam. You can continue to ignore the fact that these people are supported by the apparatus of a number of Arab Muslim States and semi states. You can continue to ignore the fact that these people are "action oriented" and that they believe their actions are based in Islam. However, if you continue to do so, you might find that your vision of Islam may soon be a thing of the past.


The rest of us are paying attention and we do not think that we or you should go down without a fight.



You might like this rather fawning and saccharine series on Islam. (It is narrated by Ben Kingsly so it is easy to listen too)


HIDDEN HISTORY of ISLAM [ PART 1 of 9 ]


www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPnbd1VLm-4&feat...


It provides something of a counterpoint to the previous videos.


     

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 3:38AM #42
Ibn
Posts: 4,495

Jun 1, 2012 -- 10:05AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Ibn


1. The conquests of lands by the Arab Muslims was not a good thing for the people who were conquered.


Conquest of Palestine by the Jews from Europe and America was not a good thing for the Palestinians.

Jun 1, 2012 -- 10:05AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Islam was and is expansionist.


Israel was created due to a religion called Judaism and is expanding. Therefore, Judaism is expansionist.

Jun 1, 2012 -- 10:05AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Expansionist policies have consequences to those who are the victims of them, and those consequences are often not good.


Expansionist policies by the Jews by creating more Jewish settlements have consequences to those who are known as Palestinians.

Jun 1, 2012 -- 10:05AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

(You might wish to talk to Native Americans about this problem)


Palestinians are talking and the world is paying heavy price economically as well as in human lives.  

Jun 1, 2012 -- 10:05AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

By the way, your history is faulty. Mohammed violated his treaties and attacked. His actions may have been the norm for his place, time and society but they were what they were, although your revisionist history is noted.


That is one history about Muhammad that you will never get right and I understand it inside out. Muhammad never attacked first but it was always against an attack by his enemies. You will never be able to honestly refute that fact.


Jun 1, 2012 -- 10:05AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

2. The initial Islamic "states" were not "democratic" and they did not have popularly elected governments. Religious rights (and non-religious rights) of non-Muslims were severely curtailed.


Initial Islamic State was democratic. Jews were allowed to keep and practice their religion in and around Madina and even be judged by the laws of their religion.


Jun 1, 2012 -- 10:05AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

3. Converting by force might not be Islamic but it happened with enough frequency to be the usual course of the day. "Convert or die," is really not a great set of options.


What do you mean by “might not be Islamic”? If it is not Islamic then why do you blame Islam for anything that you regard “converting by force”?


This is Discuss Islam board; not politics board.


Jun 1, 2012 -- 10:05AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

4. The State of Israel was re-created in 1948 as the culmination of the national aspirations of the Jewish people in their homeland.


The land was taken by force initially and again by force in 1948 in the name of a religion.

Jun 1, 2012 -- 10:05AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

The Israelis were able to overcome the invasions of 5 Arab armies and liberate their land from centuries of occupation.


When Muslim went there after the land was in control of the non-Jews and non-Muslims, they cleared the holy sites that were full of garbage. That is what you had made it into after initially taking it by force by killing those in your way for forty years. Don’t forget that history!


Jun 1, 2012 -- 10:05AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Israel is not expanding, in fact it has undergone a number of contractions. Israel donated the Sinai to Egypt and left Gaza to the so called Palestinians. It has also donated large tracts of land to an organization of so called Palestinians known as the PA and has offered even larger tracts of land if the so called Palestinians would simple stop their attacks on Israel and Israelis.


Jewish settlements on Palestinian land is expansion of Israel. The whole world has come to realize this now.


Jun 1, 2012 -- 10:05AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Of course, the re-creation of the State of Israel has only a limited relationship to the sordid history of the expansion of Islam. (The comment to which you were pretending to respond) Currently, that relationship has most to do with the fact that Islam can not abide the idea that any land ever controlled by Islam should ever be liberated by its original inhabitants or be controlled by any other than Muslims.


This is a much deeper subject than you will ever understand. Man was created to be in Islam (by obeying the commands of G-d). Adam was required to obey the command of G-d. The so-called Israelites were required to obey all the commands (and thus be in Islam/Submission). The name of a religion called “Judaism” is a man-made and man-thought name. It was never given by G-d. Islam is a name given by G-d for “obeying His commands”. Therefore, it is the only Way given to mankind from the outset and the whole earth was given to man to live on and obey the commands. The whole earth belongs to  man who submits to the G-d (is muslim).  


Jun 1, 2012 -- 10:05AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

5. And you are conveniently forgetting that much of the Arab Muslim world was allied with Nazi Germany and was fully complicit with the Nazis. You are also conveniently forgetting that the Arab Muslim world expelled their Jewish population in 1948 and had on and off for centuries been persecuting them for the simple reason that they were Jewish.


Ideas of Nazis and Zionists are identical. A large population of India was Muslim that fought alongside British. My own uncle was in British army here in England during the WWII. One of the main allies of USA today is Saudi Arabia (Arab Muslim country) alongside Israel. Therefore, Israel and Saudi Arabia must have something in common that they are good buddies of America.


Jun 1, 2012 -- 10:05AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

I wonder from whom you do learn Islam and the history of Islam. Whoever that may be, they must be very poor teachers indeed, as they know neither the full breath of Islamic theology nor do they know or understand the history of Islam nor do they have any understanding of how the two interact. While I would not suggest that you learn Islam from non-Muslims, I would suggest that you learn how Islam has affected non-Muslims. It would not hurt you to learn at least part of that lesson from those who have been affected, often adversely affected, by Islam and Muslims who may not have been precisely following the teachings of Islam.


Read your last statement in full and you will see that you are contradicting yourself. You are contradicting yourself because you can’t tell the difference between “Islam” and “Muslim”.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 6:00PM #43
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Just in case no one notices, I'm posting in mod mode now.


It's quite easy for these types of threads to slide into political debates and into another Jews vs. Muslims diatribe.  


That will not happen.  We will not engage in lengthy discussions about Palestine or about who did what to whom 1000 years ago.  We are agreed on this board that our discussions are about religion, not about the acts of individuals or age old conflicts.  So, please, let's take the discusson back to what was done and what Islam has to do with it re the topic. Take the rest to MENP.


Thank you for your cooperation.


Me

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 5:21PM #44
chevy956
Posts: 1,954

May 18, 2012 -- 2:05PM, BDboy wrote:


May 18, 2012 -- 10:03AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


. . .

full article:
www.timesofisrael.com/toronto-islamic-sc...


One of the things the school allegedly taught is that the Jews conspired to kill the Prophet Muhammad. I had not previously understood this to be a Muslim belief. Is it?




 


>>>>>>>>> Like all messengers of God (Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph....PBUT), Muhammad (PBUH) was the final messenger from our Maker. Like the previous messengers he spoke the truth to people and people in power. Which made some people angry. For example when he spoke about rights of employees/slaves it made a lot of people angry. When idol worshippers were told there is only ONE GOD and no other partners of God, it made a lot of people angry.


So a lot of people (Many from Mecca) were not pleased with the prospect that, their "Idol selling" business may not last. Similarly other aspects of his teachings about him being the last messenger of God (Since he was not from the Jewish people) made some Jews angry at him. It is important to note that, many Jews not only liked him but also singed a peace and protection treaty with him.


It is likly that SOME Jews wanted to kill him for his new teaching. But if someone claims "The Jews" wanted to kill him is far from what happened during his time. In fact a Popular Rabbi from Medina was such a fan, he insisted that, he fight along with Muslims defending the city of medina (The city Muhammad migrated to). To appreciate this one has to realize, as per treaty signed by "Jews of Medina" they were guranteed protection by the city state and ONLY Muslims HAD to fight (Automatically drafted). But inspite of the "Pact" the rabbi wanted to fight along with Muslims to defend prophet's adopted city.


History tells us many Jews also accepted Muhammad (PBUH) as the last prophet and became Muslims. So if someone want to blame "All Jews" for any bad incident, that would not be accurate to say the least.


Lastly there were certain tribe who did commit treason with the new founded state.


I think it has to be a very bad translation of history. I invite all readers to read the Qur'an for themselves, it NEVER said all Jews are bad. Rather Islam talks about our "Common roots" with Children of Abraham.


Like every community Jews have bad people and good people in them. It is part of our collective history. if anyone want to defend ALL Jews from ALL history, he/she has to visit a mental doctor to 'Cure" such absurd idea.


lastly I would say, Islam does NOT say all Jews are bad. Hope it helps Rocket.




Muhammed also had a large number of Jews murdered or enslaved at Yathrib (Medina) after a battle because they were supposedly traitors. He also claimed to be the Jewish Messiah, which likely after first hand observation of his deviousness, the Jews decided that he wasn't the one after all and backed out of the agreement.  The bad blood between Jews and Muslims goes back a long way, and the problem stems with the Muslims. History also tells us that many Jewish conversions to Islam were by force.


   Islamic media doesn't have anything particularly nice to say about Jews. Who finances Islamic media?- Muslims, who are the face of Islam.


  Attempts to make Muslims somehow look like victims is nonsense. I'm glad that the school had its privileges taken away from them and hopr that this example will drive the point home that religiously based hatred is not to be tolerated in democratic, pluralistic societies.


  

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 12:14PM #45
BDboy
Posts: 5,199

Jun 14, 2012 -- 5:21PM, chevy956 wrote:


Muhammed also had a large number of Jews murdered or enslaved at Yathrib (Medina) after a battle because they were supposedly traitors. He also claimed to be the Jewish Messiah, which likely after first hand observation of his deviousness, the Jews decided that he wasn't the one after all and backed out of the agreement.



 


>>>>>>>>> I think couple of FACTs needs to be understood. Among several Jewish tribes, ONE did commit treason (Muhammad did not ask them to commit it, THEY did it) breaking a "Peace treaty" they signed with rest of the tribes of Medina (From different faiths).


So as per treaty the leader of the city Muhammad (PBUH) had the authority to punish them.


The Jewish tribe surrendered to Muhammad and ask for a consession of allowing them to pick the judge for the trial that would be awaiting them.


 It is grossly unfair and untrue to say Muhammad "Murdered" anyone. They were criminals and they were given verdict as per signed treaty. At last they surrendered themselves to the Holy Prophet on the condition that they would accept whatever decision Saa’d bin Muadh the chief of the medinite Aus tribe would give. They had accepted Saa’d as their judge because in the pre-Islamic days the Aus and the Quraizah had friendly alliance and they hoped that in view of the past ties he would help them.


You may want to understand that, the judgement was as per signed treaty and penalty was given as per OT laws (Not Islamic laws). [ Source: Deut. Ch 20:10-18 ]


Muhammad (PBUH) was the last messenger of God. Some Jews agreed to it and accepted Islam and others did not. The "Charter of Medina" was designed to protect all non-Muslims. They were asked NOT to co-operate with anyone who wanted to attack the city. Again you got this all wrong. The agreement was between people of many faiths and it did not ask anyone to convert to Islam. It was there to run the administration and court system. Jews had their own court (As per Torah laws).


 


Jun 14, 2012 -- 5:21PM, chevy956 wrote:


 The bad blood between Jews and Muslims goes back a long way, and the problem stems with the Muslims. History also tells us that many Jewish conversions to Islam were by force.


   Islamic media doesn't have anything particularly nice to say about Jews. Who finances Islamic media?- Muslims, who are the face of Islam.



 


>>>>>>>>>> I think you are mixing up with Christians here. Muslims did not force Jewish tribes to accept Islam. Looks like you are waaay off about history.


If you ask learned Jews, they will tell you that, they had the best protection of lives and properties when they lived with Muslims. I do not claim that in last 1400+ years all Muslims were perfect little angles but feel free to compare any time period over the history. Jewish civilization flurished when Muslims were ruling southern Europe. Scholars of Jewish history call it the "Jewish golden age".


 


Jun 14, 2012 -- 5:21PM, chevy956 wrote:


  Attempts to make Muslims somehow look like victims is nonsense. I'm glad that the school had its privileges taken away from them and hopr that this example will drive the point home that religiously based hatred is not to be tolerated in democratic, pluralistic societies.


  




 


>>>>>>>> If you read the thread, you will see most people of all faith do not support hate against anyone. Here once it was brought into attention, people acted promtly.


I must say, some of your posts had many inaccurate information about history. I have given you some sources where you can VERIFY what I said. If you need more information on them, feel free to ask.

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