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Switch to Forum Live View Things atheism is not.
6 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 12:06AM #61
chevy956
Posts: 2,021

Apr 20, 2012 -- 11:50PM, teilhard wrote:

I have observed that there is a LOT of "Excoriation-rather-than-Mutual-Learning" in these "Discussions" ... IMHO this happens often at least in Part because we often tend to "talk past each other" because we are NOT "speaking the same Language" ...


Apr 20, 2012 -- 11:00PM, mountain_man wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 8:40PM, Ken wrote:

They could try researching it a little before they post here.


You're asking a bit much aren't you? The few believers that have done their research are the ones here that, while not Atheists, are our ardent defenders. The rest come here solely to excoriate us, not to learn about anything. Have you noticed that not one of them has learned anything from posting here?






In your case, the excoriation happens because you have proven yourself singularly unwilling to learn anything from us. The fact that you don't like what we tell you doesn't constitute "talking past each other".

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 12:18AM #62
Ken
Posts: 33,858

Apr 20, 2012 -- 11:00PM, mountain_man wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 8:40PM, Ken wrote:

They could try researching it a little before they post here.


You're asking a bit much aren't you? The few believers that have done their research are the ones here that, while not Atheists, are our ardent defenders. The rest come here solely to excoriate us, not to learn about anything. Have you noticed that not one of them has learned anything from posting here?



Then let's give them a taste of their own medicine. When, for example, they say that atheists must admire Stalin, we should ask them why all Christians love Pope John XII.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_XII

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 12:27AM #63
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Apr 21, 2012 -- 12:02AM, Bl├╝ wrote:

I dare say they go home and say, I TOLD 'em about Jesus, really I did, but they wouldn't listen!


Of course they would say that after finding out that we know more about their religion than they do. That also fits in with the theory that they come here so they can brag to their friends that they were picking on Atheists. They get extra points for that.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 12:32AM #64
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Apr 21, 2012 -- 12:18AM, Ken wrote:

Then let's give them a taste of their own medicine. When, for example, they say that atheists must admire Stalin, we should ask them why all Christians love Pope John XII.


As popes go he was probably one of the nicer ones.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 10:41PM #65
Knowsnothing
Posts: 1,151

Apr 19, 2012 -- 5:29PM, steven_guy wrote:



Atheism is not a belief.




If you lack belief in something, can call that in and of itself a belief?


Also depends on what type of atheism, seeing as how I have seen it defined rather differently and in different degrees of "strength".

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 10:51PM #66
steven_guy
Posts: 11,879

Apr 21, 2012 -- 10:41PM, Knowsnothing wrote:


Apr 19, 2012 -- 5:29PM, steven_guy wrote:



Atheism is not a belief.




If you lack belief in something, can call that in and of itself a belief?



No. That would be idiotic. Is your lack of belief in the Tooth Fairy a belief?


Apr 21, 2012 -- 10:41PM, Knowsnothing wrote:

Also depends on what type of atheism, seeing as how I have seen it defined rather differently and in different degrees of "strength".



Baloney. One either believes in God or one does not. 


What is the degree of lack of belief in the Tooth Fairy?

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 11:01PM #67
JCarlin
Posts: 8,225

Apr 21, 2012 -- 10:41PM, Knowsnothing wrote:

Apr 19, 2012 -- 5:29PM, steven_guy wrote:


Atheism is not a belief.


If you lack belief in something, can call that in and of itself a belief?


Also depends on what type of atheism, seeing as how I have seen it defined rather differently and in different degrees of "strength".


A belief is a positive affirmation of a truth.  An indifference to or rejection of a truth cannot be a belief simply a statement of the unimportance of the believer's truth.  Any way you interpret the a- in atheism it is simply rejecting or indifference to the truth of theism.  There are no beliefs involved.  Degrees of atheism are only important to those trying to prove atheism wrong.  If one rejects theism no matter why hesh is in the club. 

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 1:03AM #68
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Apr 21, 2012 -- 10:41PM, Knowsnothing wrote:

If you lack belief in something, can call that in and of itself a belief?


Of course not. Why would you believe such a thing? It makes no sense. That would be like saying that bald is a hair color.


Also depends on what type of atheism, seeing as how I have seen it defined rather differently and in different degrees of "strength".


There is only one kind of Atheism; a lack of belief in gods. Everything after that is a personal opinion and not an attribute of all Atheists. Some like to divide Atheism up into little groups but that actually makes no sense; you either believe in gods or you do not. The how or why is irrelevant. The only thing all Atheists have in common is a lack of belief in gods. It's a default position, nothing need be said, done, or believed.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 4:11AM #69
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

Apr 19, 2012 -- 5:37PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 19, 2012 -- 5:29PM, steven_guy wrote:


Atheism is not a philosophy.
Atheism is not a path.
Atheism is not a religion.
Atheism is not a world view.
Atheism is not a way of life.
Atheism is not a belief.
Atheism is not a rebellion against religion.

Atheism is not a rebellion against God or any other imaginary being.
Atheism is not a political stance.


Others may add to this list if they like.




Atheism might not be those things, but it can drive and/or result from them.


For example, atheism is not a world view. But being atheist surely will affect how one views the world. Atheism is not a philosophy -- but it most surely can affect philosophy.


Hence, in generalized discussions, such terms might be used. 


As is, "X" is a theistic philosophy, whereas, "Y" is an atheistic philosophy.








Theists might not be people who understand reason, but they COULD if they thought for themselves.



For example mouse:  You said it might not be a philosphy, where it appears you are using reason ... for a moment.  But then you revealed you don't really get it, when you said:  "But being atheist surely will affect how one views the world"  


It most "surely" will not.  I am a Buddhist, so I have no choice-theism doesn't work with Buddhism and is contradicted by it.  But there's no mention or chapter in my sutra about "god", "no god" or "atheism" or "theism".  As a Buddhist, I am NATURALLY an atheist.  But in no way does "atheism" itself guide any of my beliefs, or philosophies, etc.  However, BUDDHISM does.  This says you did fine up until the word "surely".  You should have stuck to the safe words in this territory you are clearly ignorant of, words like "can", "might".  Some yes, but "surely" implies all and that's where you reveal your ignorance of the true nature of "atheism".   At which point you DID suggest it must replace a religion rather than realize it can be the side effect of one, in this case Buddhism.  Since Buddhism predates Christianity, it's a pretty careless overstatement on your part.


There  is no question that one's core beliefs guide many lesser beliefs.  Bahais for example cannot even see a gay person is naturally gay-and instead suggest they understand the gay's nature better than he himself, just as they propose to understand Buddhism better than its founder and those who devote their life to its practice.  Some religions are based on arrogance, while claiming justification-and indeed..... it does indeed... affect the worldview of their adherents!


So your point is valid, until you shoved an absolute in and even if you hadn't, we also have to assume your point implicitly argued an INDIRECT relationship between these things like "philosophy" and something directly unrelated like "atheism", which has no philosophy.  But again, to reaffirm the point you obviously don't get-atheism really doesn't suggest a thing about the things on steven's list-thus the title of the thread-and posts like yours reveal the need for posts like ours to drill simple points into thick skulls.  


So... if I am atheist as a side effect of a negative religion...  Like, say I don't care for the ways that Christians and Bahais bash gays instead of adding value to a situation... sure, I might reject the Abrahamic god and become an atheist simply out of common sense-like when a girl quits dating a guy because she sees the signs of violence and abuse:  She is without him and rejecting him, quietly or loudly.   In a case like this, I might indeed develop the majority of my important beliefs around avoiding these clueless, shallow, and abusive religions and their stances.  Perhaps I might even begin finding my beliefs (since atheism doesn't tell me what they should be) by just choosing the opposite of whatever these self righteous escapists say is "right".  Seems logical:  As if they are so wrong about the nature of life (to ultimately ESCAPE it lol), they are likely wrong about anything even mildly important.  This is much more logical than basing ones beliefs on.... invisible sky monsters, or thinking you understand things you never even studied... or thinking you understand what it means to be "gay" if you are straight lol, the last is actually my favorite theist delusion.  In such a case, my beliefs (political, philisophical, etc.) may not directly stem from atheism... but they could very likely INDIRECTLY stem from atheism.  


But note the way I consider others-not assuming to know everything and thus naturally avoiding ABSOLUTES, especially when trying to understand behavior and minds of others-but even speculation requires thinking and why think when some guys wrote books and other guys claim that it was an all powerful, all knowing being speaking through them... eh?    Perhaps with certain theisms comes an inherent arrogance that since your god is all knowing,... so are his believers.


See an absolute means "No Exceptions", and the reality is, the type of atheist you describe are likely the minority, exceptions to your blind claim are everywhere.  But if an absolute is claimed, all it takes is ONE to prove his statement careless and ignorant.  But I just got here, I'm sure someone already showed you the error of thinking you understand things you really never took the time to understand.

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6 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 5:55AM #70
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

Apr 19, 2012 -- 6:26PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Apr 19, 2012 -- 6:19PM, steven_guy wrote:


Apr 19, 2012 -- 6:10PM, mainecaptain wrote:


Some people seem to deliberately not want to understand what atheism actually is.




I've noticed that over the years. There must be some sort of psychological need in these people to misunderstand atheism.




You must know some strange people.




The strangest I've seen was on beliefnet:  It was a bahai who redefined atheism to include "monotheism".  He intentionally interpretted the "rejecting god/s" part of the definition to mean, any gods rather than the obvious "ALL" required by atheism.  Thus by his definition... EVERYONE is an atheist as everyone rejects some gods.  And to be more specific, instead of rersearching for 5 minutes to understand the meaning of the words there, is such to include both "soft" and "hard" atheism, that is "rejection" or negative statement, vs. "affirmation" or positive statement, respectively.  But both soft and hard obviously mean to include ALL gods.  Yet, he continued to intentionally misunderstand the concept despite the childishness of his argument and of course despite being so outmatched, both in education of his opponents, and the evidence they presented.  He reaffirmed to me that ALL theisms require denial as part of their practice:  Reason never is used, and is instead considered inferior to unsubstantiated claims of holy books that derive from all powerful but invisible creatures... so again, no thinking necessary.  


It seems more logical to me to get a drug habit, as the only difference between theism and heroin on one's life is the former lacks a dopamine rush.  


Personally, it made perfect sense to me:  Bahai and its followers basically tell every other group of believers they are confused about their own teaching, and that the bahais, who haven't studied it understand it better..... so why not do the same with non-believers?  Seemed consistent.

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