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Switch to Forum Live View Things atheism is not.
5 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 3:25PM #131
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Knowsnothing:


"I think the label "atheist" wouldn't even exist if not prompted by those that claim god exists, because it would just be a non-sequitur.  However, that is not the case."


Indeed.

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 3:53PM #132
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

Yes ...


The Use of a Prefix seems at some Level to ASSUME Something about that Word to which it is affixed ... (the "non" in "non-sequitur" doesn't mean ANYTHING much sans the "sequitur," eh ... ???


Apr 24, 2012 -- 3:25PM, wohali wrote:


Knowsnothing:


"I think the label "atheist" wouldn't even exist if not prompted by those that claim god exists, because it would just be a non-sequitur.  However, that is not the case."


Indeed.





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5 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 8:20PM #133
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

Apr 23, 2012 -- 6:59PM, steven_guy wrote:


Apr 23, 2012 -- 5:42PM, Fodaoson wrote:


One cannot get a degree in glossolalia but it is an area of study in Religious studies  and Psychology; There is no degree in the how the Eucharist fits in religions  but it is an area study also,   there is no degree in Baptists sectarianism but  there is an areas of study in religious studies, cultural studies, and behavioral Social-Psychology.


Of course atheism  come from the Greek  a-[without] and theos [ god], but it could be used as having no god, belief in no god, disbelief in a god  or denial of gods.    There are forms of expression of atheism, secularism, humanism, secular-humanism, Taoism, Buddhism. 




Atheism is a lack of belief in god, gods and goddesses. Okay?


Taoism is Taoism.


Buddhism is Buddhism.


A secularist, humanist or secular-humanist may well be an atheist, but that is incidental. Most atheists I know couldn't care less about any of these things - they are simply people who do not believe in god, gods or goddesses.


SHeesh! How long is it going to take us to explain this to you?




I don't follow the difference you imply here Steven:  What you said about secular humanism is exactly true about Buddhism, Taoism, and others, like Confucianism for example.  That is, it is "incidental".  Which is much more descriptive than saying, "Secular humanism is secular humanism".  As though it is something entirely different... but is it Steven?  Isn't the whole point of the thread to reveal that atheism is NOT attached to anything in particular, or more, or less... except one thing:  Lacking any faith, in any gods.  


In that regard, the difference you've implied by putting these atheist faiths, or if you like, "Certain Eastern Philosophies"  in ONE group, and then leaving another for ...well... what is it?  "Non-religious forms of atheism"?????


See Steven, it's ironic.... SOME atheists (not myself lol) do the same thing they accuse the christians of, or nearly.  It is what it is, your statement above adding something personal to it, something that did not belong.  Just like the christians you are explaining it to.  


No harm done-just wanted to point it out as I bet you didn't realize that how you wrote it... revealed it's not really that "simple" to  you.


I'd also point out that atheists here do it frequently-it's not like the "atheists get it and the christians  don't"  and I only single out christians here as in their majority, and perhaps somewhere during the crusades-it appears they lost the belief that others (non-christians) have any rights, and thus right have severe difficulty listening to these "others", including atheists, Buddhists, secular whathaveyous, much less actually thinking and therefore being ABLE to learn from them.  Nope, atheists too are guilty-overcomplicating what it is.  Just like the christians, many of them redefine it out of convenience, or selfishness to put it honestly.  Both groups can overcomplicate this simple lack of belief in an outdated idea, long since running it's course.



But it is indeed that simple in reality:  You either DO or you DO NOT believe in 1 god or more.   And if you DO, then you are not an atheist, you are a theist of some variety.   And if you don't, then you are atheist.  And that's the end of it.  There aren't really degrees of atheism.  


And secular humanists I would argue are perhaps LESS "atheist" than Buddhists if one wishes to boil this unworthy claim down.  Normally I would make no such argument; not caring.  But since your implication brought it to the table... allow me to retort.  


EDIT:  I said quite a bit here to make this argument, which is pretty obvious if you think about it objectively... as I question these "naked atheists" at least the American ones-they don't seem to believe what they say-unless they have a group-then they appear to get something done, but on their own, I see them behave as cowards when it matters.  It's your thread-and while this is addressed to any secular humanist who talks the talk but fails to walk when the opportunity is presented,  it was your implicit but clear statement that aroused my passion to tear that claim to pieces.  Either way-I'm not gonna hijack your thread, so my reasons are in another thread-one on this subject which you can find by the time you read this :)  


  

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 10:01PM #134
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Apr 24, 2012 -- 8:12AM, Sparky_Spotty wrote:

To me, the priests are only part of the issue.  heck, its quite possible many of the offenders were pedophiles already and only entered the priesthood in order to gain access to children. I don't know. To me, where the equally reprehensible actions occured, is in the catholic churches efforts to conceal their activity. To effectively condone it by merely transferring priests to another parish for example.


That the priest hood would attract those that have a need for power over others is to be expected. A certain number of those that want that power would also use it to bend children to their sexual desires. But I don't think the priesthood or any other preacher group would have a significant number of pedophiles than other groups. It's the cover-up that is the problem. The people that claim to represent a god that is "love" cared more about protecting the religion than protecting children.


To keep in with the O.P. - Atheism is NOT an organization that hides the pedophilic activities of its members.


There is no Atheist organization that would, or could, do such a thing.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 10:11PM #135
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,506

Bob_the_Lunatic: Steven  guy  addressed fodaoson , moi

Bob_the_Lunatic: Steven  guy  addressed fodaoson , moi

Just like the Christians you are explaining it to”[end].   A Christian is someone who places their faith for salvation in Jesus Christ .   For me Jesus is a character in an ancient book that has had and still has a huge impact on the development of Western literature and culture.  I was reared in a Judeao- Christian family, home , community ,culture and  environment.  I have practicing Christian family, acquaintances and associates. I know Christian doctrines, practices, beliefs but do not hold to them as divinely inspired or applicable to my eternal soul.  I have a Taoist leaning Philosophy,   an agnostic and reasoned belief,   So Just like the  Christians you are explaining it to does not apply.


I have stated before and have not  seen presented  a valid argument otherwise , that some  self-described atheists posting on Belief net are really ANTI theist anti-Christian- religion, not just no such thing as god atheists. Some(most?) posting atheist are real true atheists     

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 10:24PM #136
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

In general, it seems that MANY of us have Difficulty coming to Terms with a terrible Situation that no one wants to imagine ... The same Kind of "I can't believe it ... !!!" Reaction comes up when a young Mother in Florida (apparently) killed her own beautiful Child or when Day Care Workers abuse the little ones in their Care ... it's a frightful Loss of Innocence all around ...


Apr 24, 2012 -- 10:01PM, mountain_man wrote:


Apr 24, 2012 -- 8:12AM, Sparky_Spotty wrote:

To me, the priests are only part of the issue.  heck, its quite possible many of the offenders were pedophiles already and only entered the priesthood in order to gain access to children. I don't know. To me, where the equally reprehensible actions occured, is in the catholic churches efforts to conceal their activity. To effectively condone it by merely transferring priests to another parish for example.


That the priest hood would attract those that have a need for power over others is to be expected. A certain number of those that want that power would also use it to bend children to their sexual desires. But I don't think the priesthood or any other preacher group would have a significant number of pedophiles than other groups. It's the cover-up that is the problem. The people that claim to represent a god that is "love" cared more about protecting the religion than protecting children.


To keep in with the O.P. - Atheism is NOT an organization that hides the pedophilic activities of its members.


There is no Atheist organization that would, or could, do such a thing.





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5 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 12:38AM #137
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

For MANY professed "Atheists," their "A-Theism" DOES seem to be a particular IDEA or CLAIM re: The "God" Question ... Therefore, it has SOME "Content" ...


Apr 24, 2012 -- 1:36PM, Knowsnothing wrote:


Ok then, can atheism be described as a stance or position? 


For example, theists or deists may take the stance that they believe in god.


Atheists take the stance that they believe in no gods.  Of course, I understand atheists wouldn't even have to take such a stance if they weren't imposed or impressed on by theists to "decide".  Since it is a lack of belief, it wouldn't cross an atheist's mind on a day-to-day basis, just like asking yourself whether you believe in the Tooth Fairy doesn't generally cross your mind unless prompted.


I think the label "atheist" wouldn't even exist if not prompted by those that claim god exists, because it would just be a non-sequitur.  However, that is not the case.






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5 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 3:12AM #138
Blü
Posts: 26,191

Fodaoson


Most people fear death because it is unknown


Yes, it seems they do - oddly, since death is neither unknown nor obscure.  It's just the cessation of life and it's all around us.  We're not different in any relevant way to our fellow animals.  I have apprehensions about dying, but none about being dead.


In that manner atheism is a  knowledge acquired by “doing philosophy”, a belief in reasoned reality


Our understanding of reality is reasoned (and constantly re-reasoned as we learn more).  So I'd say reality is 'reasoned about', but not of itself 'reasoned'.

Meanwhile if someone ever gives a satisfactory demonstration of a supernatural being in reality, I'll be as interested as anyone else.  I don't expect that to happen.  Much more strangely, I don't know any believers who do.


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5 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 11:39AM #139
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,506

Apr 25, 2012 -- 3:12AM, Blü wrote:


Fodaoson


Most people fear death because it is unknown


Yes, it seems they do - oddly, since death is neither unknown nor obscure.  It's just the cessation of life and it's all around us.  We're not different in any relevant way to our fellow animals.  I have apprehensions about dying, but none about being dead.


In that manner atheism is a  knowledge acquired by “doing philosophy”, a belief in reasoned reality


Our understanding of reality is reasoned (and constantly re-reasoned as we learn more).  So I'd say reality is 'reasoned about', but not of itself 'reasoned'.

Meanwhile if someone ever gives a satisfactory demonstration of a supernatural being in reality, I'll be as interested as anyone else.  I don't expect that to happen.  Much more strangely, I don't know any believers who do.





Meanwhile if someone ever gives a satisfactory demonstration of a supernatural being in reality, I'll be as interested as anyone else.  I don't expect that to happen.  Much more strangely, I don't know any believers who do.”


  The power and influence of the brain  on people is sometimes more powerful than some   real events.   Some “religious experiences” are  so strong as to convince  person of  the reality.  The experience may be psychologically or hysterically induced but It is still real to the person experiencing it.    PTSD suffers often have dreams that cause them to react as they did to the traumatic event.    The religious experience of being “born again” can be so strong as to cause people to really believe they have seen Jesus or have been in the presence of  “The Holy Spirit.”      

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 7:26PM #140
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,458

Apr 24, 2012 -- 10:11PM, Fodaoson wrote:


Bob_the_Lunatic: Steven  guy  addressed fodaoson , moi


Bob_the_Lunatic: Steven  guy  addressed fodaoson , moi,  ” Just like the Christians you are explaining it to”.   A Christian is someone who places their faith for salvation in Jesus Christ .   For me Jesus is a character in an ancient book that has had and still has a huge impact on the development of Western literature and culture.  I was reared in a Judeao- Christian family, home , community ,culture and  environment.  I have practicing Christian family, acquaintances and associates. I know Christian doctrines, practices, beliefs but do not hold to them as divinely inspired or applicable to my eternal soul.  I have a Taoist leaning Philosophy,   an agnostic and reasoned belief,   So Just like the  Christians you are explaining it to does not apply.


I have stated before and have not  seen presented  a valid argument otherwise , that some  self-described atheists posting on Belief net are really ANTI theist anti-Christian- religion, not just no such thing as god atheists. Some(most?) posting atheist are real true atheists     




I was talking to Steven, quit eavesdropping and mind your own business.

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