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Switch to Forum Live View The Koranic View of the Torah
2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 10:47AM #51
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,892

Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:15AM, ffb wrote:


Thank you for this -- it does clarify the points very well. Any response I have would be in the realm of overall faith and theology and would stary far afield of the intended thread. I will leave you with one thought to give you an idea of how a religious Jew might perceive your statement about Judaism accepting later "revelations" as authoritative. God gave Christians the Book of Mormon so they would know how Jews feel. I think it can be expanded to say "God gave Islam the Book of Mormon..." to the same effect. If you say god's hands are not tied, then anyone's claim of later revelation is as valid. But that's a discussion for another day.



Did you throw this point as a bait for a Bahá'í to step in? Well it worked, since your point is very valid indeed. Bahá'u'lláh speaks equally sternly about both the Muslim divines and the Jewish learned as regards their claim that God's revelation through their prophet is final. Here's one such verse of rebuke addressing Muslim divines who falsely scorn Jews for their belief in the finality of revelation with Moses:


"Observe how in this day also, all these people have occupied themselves with such foolish absurdities. For over a thousand years they have been . . . pronouncing their censure against the Jews, utterly unaware that they themselves, openly and privily, are voicing the sentiments and belief of the Jewish people! Thou art surely aware of their idle contention, that all Revelation is ended, that the portals of Divine mercy are closed, that from the day-springs of eternal holiness no sun shall rise again, that the Ocean of everlasting bounty is forever stilled, and that out of the Tabernacle of ancient glory the Messengers of God have ceased to be made manifest. Such is the measure of the understanding of these small-minded, contemptible people. These people have imagined that the flow of God’s all-encompassing grace and plenteous mercies, the cessation of which no mind can contemplate, has been halted." (Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Iqán, p. 137)


Obviously both the Jews and the majority of Muslims have found verses in their respective holy books which unambiguously (for them) set forth how God's revelation has been finalized in their books.


In our (Bahá'í) view, to even suggest that God's revelation to man can be exhausted in a single book or a finite series of books borders blasphemy (no penalties prescribed though, ;) ). This is a very interesting discussion indeed.


"Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared." (Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, pg. 81)


"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements." (Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh)


Kind regards,


LilWabbit

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 10:56AM #52
visio
Posts: 3,250

Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:19AM, ffb wrote:


"Another "problem" that I noticed is that the Koran only makes reference to "the Torah" and "the Pslams.  It claims that only the emendations-changes that were made was to "the Torah".   



It is my understanding that "the Torah" refers to the first five books of the Tankah-Hebrew Bible.   "


 


I cannot speak to the intent of the Koran -- it is using a word to encompass an idea.



The intent of the Al-Quran, the Taurat, mentioned in it, is all the revelation God/ALLAHswt gave to Musasaw (Moses) in a spiritual vision.  Some of it Musasaw (Moses) could have them transmitted, some could not and left it within himself, dependent upon his capability to interpret using what dictionary was available during his time and of course, his memory power to recall what he witnessed for each vision.      


The word Torah can refer to the 5 books, the entire written text (5 books, prophets, writings -- the Tanach) or the entire of the written and oral torahs taken as a whole. Since there are 3 different uses (at least), there is room for variant understandings.



Can you clarify your statement again?   Are you saying, as it is, all the revelation narrated by Musasaw (Moses) are, to-day, absorbed and diluted into, what you refer to as the Tanach where in Moses's narratives were subjected to a reconciliation process with narratives of other prophets?  What is the difference between oral and written Torah?


And just a little question - Is Genesis 2 : 7 a narative of Musasaw (Moses)? 


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 4:51PM #53
ffb
Posts: 2,173

LilWabbit -- it wasn't my intent to bait anyone to join in, not that I mind the ocmpany. I was just trying to point out a particular idea which could then be applied by others to understand the Jewish point of view.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 4:59PM #54
ffb
Posts: 2,173

"The intent of the Al-Quran, the Taurat, mentioned in it, is all the revelation God/ALLAHswt gave to Musasaw (Moses) in a spiritual vision."


that would then be just the five books, or parts thereof, depending on your particular faith position.


"Are you saying, as it is, all the revelation narrated by Musasaw (Moses) are, to-day, absorbed and diluted into, what you refer to as the Tanach where in Moses's narratives were subjected to a reconciliation process with narratives of other prophets?  What is the difference between oral and written Torah?"


Nope -- I'm saying that there was a written text transmitted to Moses from god, which Mo wrote down word for word. After his death (beginning with the book of Joshua) there were narratives and experiences which were written down by a variety of prophets and leaders which added canonical information and provided insight into the historical development and religious experiences of the people, plus prophecies about the continued experiences. These later writings (the prophets and writings) are not about any reconcilliation process but they contribute to a fuller understanding of the 5 books of Moses.


The oral torah is predicated on the faith based statement that at Sinai, a separate set of laws was handed to Moses which he tansmitted orally to Joshua and it continued to be told down the line. Additional explication to it was added and the entire body is considered the oral law.


Gen 2:7 is part of the 5 books, and thus part of what Moses transcribed from god's mouth.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 7:30PM #55
visio
Posts: 3,250

Apr 27, 2012 -- 4:59PM, ffb wrote:


"The intent of the Al-Quran, the Taurat, mentioned in it, is all the revelation God/ALLAHswt gave to Musasaw (Moses) in a spiritual vision."


that would then be just the five books, or parts thereof, depending on your particular faith position.


"Are you saying, as it is, all the revelation narrated by Musasaw (Moses) are, to-day, absorbed and diluted into, what you refer to as the Tanach where in Moses's narratives were subjected to a reconciliation process with narratives of other prophets?  What is the difference between oral and written Torah?"


Nope -- I'm saying that there was a written text transmitted to Moses from god, which Mo wrote down word for word.



Thank you.   I am not that familiar with the Hebrew way of expressing things.  Let me try again.  Are you saying there was a God written text given to Moses or are you saying there were words or string of words transmitted to Moses which he wrote down?.  If it was the latter, in whose presence were they written?  On the spot or at a time much later.


The reason why I am asking is that, thru my life experience getting acquaintance with mystics of a high order, none would ever write on the spot, as the words or the vision flows in. 


After his death (beginning with the book of Joshua) there were narratives and experiences which were written down by a variety of prophets and leaders which added canonical information and provided insight into the historical development and religious experiences of the people, plus prophecies about the continued experiences. These later writings (the prophets and writings) are not about any reconcilliation process but they contribute to a fuller understanding of the 5 books of Moses.



So for the last 2000+ years was there anyone else who came around to add to those written in what, if I may call it, a Master Scripture where in every thing, historical  and theological are canonised so as to be kept evergreen, open in continuity until such time as full understanding arrives.   What do you mean by canonised?  Is it a process to validate/vet out any particular interpretation?   


The oral torah is predicated on the faith based statement that at Sinai, a separate set of laws was handed to Moses......



Do you mean to say that the oral torah is specific to a set of Laws transmitted orally at Sinai? or this specific set of oral torah was part of a greater Oral Laws?     


 

which he tansmitted orally to Joshua and it continued to be told down the line. Additional explication to it was added and the entire body is considered the oral law.



By whom? 


Gen 2:7 is part of the 5 books, and thus part of what Moses transcribed from god's mouth.



What do you mean god's mouth?  Any idea/information from the elderlies what god looked like in the words of Moses?


I am sorry if you find my questioning is a barrister/solicitor-like.  Just to get away from semantic subjectivity and try to get some objectivity.  I am still bewildered at the phraseology in Genesis 2 : 7.  It challenges my understanding of the level of intellect that Moses had after all the revelation, both in words spoken (by whom-really?) and vision (spiritual).  

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 8:32PM #56
Ibn
Posts: 4,788

Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:15AM, ffb wrote:


Thank you for this -- it does clarify the points very well. Any response I have would be in the realm of overall faith and theology and would stary far afield of the intended thread.


We are here discussing ideas and trying to make sense of how we see things differently in our respective religions. As long as the discussion is respectful, there is room on this board to include overall faith and theology.  


Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:15AM, ffb wrote:

I will leave you with one thought to give you an idea of how a religious Jew might perceive your statement about Judaism accepting later "revelations" as authoritative. God gave Christians the Book of Mormon so they would know how Jews feel. I think it can be expanded to say "God gave Islam the Book of Mormon..." to the same effect. If you say god's hands are not tied, then anyone's claim of later revelation is as valid. But that's a discussion for another day. Thank you for walking me through these ideas.



I have no idea when the Book of Mormon was written but what I have been told by a Mormon is that Joseph Smith only found the tablets that were given to an earlier prophet who had even been to Arabia before Muhammad (pbuh). Therefore, the example of Baha'u'llah's writings may be appropriate in case of Muslims but not the Book of Mormons.


The main point is not whether one accepts a later revelation or not but whether one can understand the difference (if any) in the later revelation and why. If one does not accept the later revelation at all (even before reading about it) regardless of what is in it then even reading about it is pointless. Muslims will not reject the revelation of Taurat because it is the foundation of monotheism in some considerable details. Both the Christianity and Islam (the names as known today) build on revelation through Moses. For example, there is nothing about circumcision of male babies in the Qur'an but all Male Muslim babies are cirumcised the same way as the Jewish babies. It hasn't been prohibited in the Gospels or in the Qur'an and, therefore, it carries on since Abraham was commanded to do so. 


I believe it is better to see our common ground rather than miss the forest by looking for a tree.


Whatever the case, I thank you for the discussion and for your point of view. Thanks.


Peace


Ibn

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 11:57AM #57
ffb
Posts: 2,173

"Are you saying there was a God written text given to Moses or are you saying there were words or string of words transmitted to Moses which he wrote down?.  If it was the latter, in whose presence were they written?  On the spot or at a time much later."


This is a difficult concept to summarize because according to Jewish tradition, the Torah predates the creation of the world so there is a concept of a god-created "text". But there is also extensive talmudic discussion about the actual revelation and transcription involving Mo. Check this site for a summary of opinions


www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/Bible/Ori...


"So for the last 2000+ years was there anyone else who came around to add to those written in what, if I may call it, a Master Scripture where in every thing, historical  and theological are canonised so as to be kept evergreen, open in continuity until such time as full understanding arrives.   What do you mean by canonised?  Is it a process to validate/vet out any particular interpretation?


Over the last 2000 years there has been much written, starting from the writing down of the oral law and all the material used to explain it. This process, which is still going on, helps establish understanding and application of law and insight. This site gives a minimalist review of the oral law. I don't think it is great but it touches on a few main points.


www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/Rabbinics...


"Do you mean to say that the oral torah is specific to a set of Laws transmitted orally at Sinai? or this specific set of oral torah was part of a greater Oral Laws?   "


the oral law was a set of statements and laws taught to Moses on Sinai, which were transmitted through oral teaching and were not written down until significantly later in Jewish history, due to the fear that they would be lost.


www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Jud...


The Mishna, the codified teachings of oral law by the sages through the generations was witten down and the continued study and explanation of the mishna was written down as the gemara. It has been continuously studied and explicated.


"


What do you mean god's mouth?  Any idea/information from the elderlies what god looked like in the words of Moses?



I am sorry if you find my questioning is a barrister/solicitor-like.  Just to get away from semantic subjectivity and try to get some objectivity.  I am still bewildered at the phraseology in Genesis 2 : 7.  It challenges my understanding of the level of intellect that Moses had after all the revelation, both in words spoken (by whom-really?) and vision (spiritual). "


I'm not sure of your point. This verse was part of the whole, all given by god to moses. Your being bewildered is perfectly reasonable -- i'm just wondering why it is limited to this verse. There are MANY strange constructions and statements. But I don't concern myself with Moses' "level of intellect" in these cases. He was transctribing, not innovating.



l



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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 9:17PM #58
visio
Posts: 3,250

Apr 29, 2012 -- 11:57AM, ffb wrote:


"Are you saying there was a God written text given to Moses or are you saying there were words or string of words transmitted to Moses which he wrote down?.  If it was the latter, in whose presence were they written?  On the spot or at a time much later."


This is a difficult concept to summarize because according to Jewish tradition, the Torah predates the creation of the world so there is a concept of a god-created "text". But there is also extensive talmudic discussion about the actual revelation and transcription involving Mo. Check this site for a summary of opinions


www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/Bible/Ori...




I am not asking for concept and whatever tradition is Jewish or not.   Just a simple question as written.  I have no propblem in recognising what is called as the Mother of Book before any single creation of this phenomenal Universe and Man, Jinn and Angel.  My question is specific to that particular book referred to as the Taurat in the Al-Quran, that was revealed to Musasaw (Moses).  Unless, of course, what you really mean in your sentences is that, your Torah is not 100% pure Mosaic and that contained in it are revelations made by earlier bani-Israel prophets, authored and packaged to formulate a sense of direction for a select/elect group among the bani-Israel tribes.  I am afraid to say that so far I find your response rather "evasive" or personally "non-commital".   May be you are in no position to clarify it personally, or have no idea.


"So for the last 2000+ years was there anyone else who came around to add to those written in what, if I may call it, a Master Scripture where in every thing, historical  and theological are canonised so as to be kept evergreen, open in continuity until such time as full understanding arrives.   What do you mean by canonised?  Is it a process to validate/vet out any particular interpretation?


Over the last 2000 years there has been much written, starting from the writing down of the oral law and all the material used to explain it. This process, which is still going on, helps establish understanding and application of law and insight. This site gives a minimalist review of the oral law. I don't think it is great but it touches on a few main points.


www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/Rabbinics..





What you are saying is that Judaism, as it is to-day, after all these past thoudsand years, still unresolved as in which direction it is going to go.   Can I conclude that?  And thanks for the link.  I am just too old to go thru all those.   What I was hoping is that someone knowledgable enough to present his/her summarised opinions.   I won't go to DJ board because from a few probing experience I have made, the feeling in there is just like living in a highly fortified forts.


"Do you mean to say that the oral torah is specific to a set of Laws transmitted orally at Sinai? or this specific set of oral torah was part of a greater Oral Laws?   "


the oral law was a set of statements and laws taught to Moses on Sinai, which were transmitted through oral teaching and were not written down until significantly later in Jewish history, due to the fear that they would be lost.


www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Jud...


The Mishna, the codified teachings of oral law by the sages through the generations was witten down and the continued study and explanation of the mishna was written down as the gemara. It has been continuously studied and explicated.



My original question was simple as stated.   I was not asking for your interpretation of the Genesis of 2 : 7.  Just not yet.   We haven't come to the core explanation of the verse be it exoteric or esoteric.


What do you mean god's mouth?  Any idea/information from the elderlies what god looked like in the words of Moses?


I am sorry if you find my questioning is a barrister/solicitor-like.  Just to get away from semantic subjectivity and try to get some objectivity.  I am still bewildered at the phraseology in Genesis 2 : 7.  It challenges my understanding of the level of intellect that Moses had after all the revelation, both in words spoken (by whom-really?) and vision (spiritual). "


I'm not sure of your point. This verse was part of the whole, all given by god to moses. Your being bewildered is perfectly reasonable -- i'm just wondering why it is limited to this verse. There are MANY strange constructions and statements. But I don't concern myself with Moses' "level of intellect" in these cases. He was transctribing, not innovating.




My point is this.  I would like to know what process or how Moses experienced the process of his meeting with his God - before and after receiving revelations.   Who was he talking to?   Th ereason I am asking is that there is a hadith by Prophet Muhammadsaw reciting a dispute between the said Adam and Moses (in the supernatural realm) and Adam was rebuking Moses for saying that he received revelation directly (that means also talked to) by God).   In the Al-Quran it is clearly stated that God/ALLAHswt always reveal things behind a veil.   In the case of Muhammadsaw it was Gabriel.  And I am pretty sure there must be some account/description in your, perhaps, so-called writings of oral traditions/history.  I was hoping my question would lead to such a description, if any.  FYI,  There are aberration among some Muslims who misunderstood the hadith and they come out glorifying Musasaw (Moses) as one who have talked directly to God/ALLAHswt, which contradicts the Al-Quran.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 9:02AM #59
ffb
Posts: 2,173

Apr 29, 2012 -- 9:17PM, visio wrote:


I am not asking for concept and whatever tradition is Jewish or not.   Just a simple question as written.  I have no propblem in recognising what is called as the Mother of Book before any single creation of this phenomenal Universe and Man, Jinn and Angel.  My question is specific to that particular book referred to as the Taurat in the Al-Quran, that was revealed to Musasaw (Moses).  Unless, of course, what you really mean in your sentences is that, your Torah is not 100% pure Mosaic and that contained in it are revelations made by earlier bani-Israel prophets, authored and packaged to formulate a sense of direction for a select/elect group among the bani-Israel tribes.  I am afraid to say that so far I find your response rather "evasive" or personally "non-commital".   May be you are in no position to clarify it personally, or have no idea.



You are asking for Jewish tradition because you are asking someone to give a faith based understanding of an event. If I asked you about the revelation to Mohemmed, you would tell of the Islamic understanding that it was through Gabriel. The book was given by god to Moses. I was not up there on the mountain, and there are different understandings of exactly what happened up there, as the site I linked to reflects. Judaism accepts that there are things that we take on faith and that we try to understand but which are beyond us. The conclusion you draw about something being "not 100% pure Mosaic" means that you haven't been reading. None of it is "Mosaic" in a creative sense as it is 100 percent godly as given TO Moses. You find my response evasive because it does not give you the answer which you want to see or which you can use to explain your view of things. Judaism's view of the torah revelation is simultaneoulsy simple and extremely complex.


Apr 29, 2012 -- 9:17PM, visio wrote:


What you are saying is that Judaism, as it is to-day, after all these past thoudsand years, still unresolved as in which direction it is going to go.   Can I conclude that?  And thanks for the link.  I am just too old to go thru all those.   What I was hoping is that someone knowledgable enough to present his/her summarised opinions.   I won't go to DJ board because from a few probing experience I have made, the feeling in there is just like living in a highly fortified forts.



No, that is what you are inferring. Judaism is resolved about its direction and yet constantly in flux. It is a traditional religion which is dynamic and changing. Judaism is based on historical texts and traditions but is constantly and reflectively evaluating itself. There is no single summarizable opinion because Judaism is exhaustive and complex. If you do not wish to read through links which give a more complete explanation than I can provide here then be aware that the conclusions you draw will often be incorrect.


“Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.” (HL Mencken)



Apr 29, 2012 -- 9:17PM, visio wrote:


My original question was simple as stated.   I was not asking for your interpretation of the Genesis of 2 : 7.  Just not yet.   We haven't come to the core explanation of the verse be it exoteric or esoteric.



and my answer stays the same. God spoke it to Moses who transcribed it. I don't see why that is so difficult.


Apr 29, 2012 -- 9:17PM, visio wrote:


My point is this.  I would like to know what process or how Moses experienced the process of his meeting with his God - before and after receiving revelations.   Who was he talking to?   Th ereason I am asking is that there is a hadith by Prophet Muhammadsaw reciting a dispute between the said Adam and Moses (in the supernatural realm) and Adam was rebuking Moses for saying that he received revelation directly (that means also talked to) by God).   In the Al-Quran it is clearly stated that God/ALLAHswt always reveal things behind a veil.   In the case of Muhammadsaw it was Gabriel.  And I am pretty sure there must be some account/description in your, perhaps, so-called writings of oral traditions/history.  I was hoping my question would lead to such a description, if any.  FYI,  There are aberration among some Muslims who misunderstood the hadith and they come out glorifying Musasaw (Moses) as one who have talked directly to God/ALLAHswt, which contradicts the Al-Quran.



Moses spoke to God and god spoke to Moses. Simple as that. Not through Gabriel, or Michael or anyone else. While god's appearance might not have been clear (a burning bush, a voice from within a cloud of smoke) there was no angel in between. Ex 33:11 is pretty clear about that. The zoharic metaphor is that Moses spoke to god as through a translucent mirror while the forefathers spoke as through a cloudy pane of glass. That is a difficult image to grasp but either way, he spoke to god on a level and in a directness that was unique to his position.



 

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 10:01AM #60
visio
Posts: 3,250

Apr 30, 2012 -- 9:02AM, ffb wrote:


You are asking for Jewish tradition because you are asking someone to give a faith based understanding of an event. If I asked you about the revelation to Mohemmed, you would tell of the Islamic understanding that it was through Gabriel.



First, thanks and sorry for my belated response.


Well that's is just one opening information that we all know.   What behind the name Gabriel and how it appeared before Muhammadsaw and whether Gabriel was a touchable body of flesh are another sets of question one may want to enquire, as part of the process to know, or have an idea of, that one God/ALLAHswt.   In the Islamic/Quranic context,  Gabriel is considered as the veil of God/ALLAHswt.  That is to say and reaffirm that God/ALLAHswt did not speak directly to Muhammadsaw.   There is, however one interesting verse in the Al-Quran, which implies that God/ALLAHswt spoke directly to Musasaw (Moses) :


An-Nisa 4 : 164   And Messenger We have mentioned to you before, and Messengers we have not mentioned to you, ------- and to Musa ALLAH spoke directly.


There, is therefore appear an apparent contradiction  or an interpretation error of the phraseology, that needs an explanation, on my part.  This would require some information that provides some detail on Moses account of his momentous experience talking direct to God.  Perhaps this vital information is written somewhere in your scriptures.


I am very curious who, in your scriptures, Moses was talking to - YHWH?  Hashem, Elohim ..... As far as I know from a highly accomplished direct experiencer, such statement as "I am, that I am",  "I was here, before everything existed"  and the likes of these, could only come from what is known in the Al-Quran as Gabriel.   The veil of that One God/ALLAHswt.  From my perspective that if it was YHWH that Moses was talking to, then, he wasn't talking to the One God/ALLAHswt of the Al-Quran.  I would thus consider YHWH as just another name from some tribes of bani-Israel for Quranic Gabriel, a guardian angel.   If by the word God is meant to be a personal God, taking YHWH as one's personal God is still an error because a personal God, if my understanding from Hinduism is correct, is that "Full Angel" when the light of the enlightened soul and the light of the guardian angel reunites as one single light of a divine nature.   What Islam/Al-Quran is saying all these Gods ≠ One God/ALLAHswt.  And I wonder what the Torah says about this.






The book was given by god to Moses.



If God spoke directly to Moses, in what forms?  Written on stones?  Papyrus? Date leaves and trunks?   That is magic to me, as Moses turned his stick to snakes.



I was not up there on the mountain, and there are different understandings of exactly what happened up there, as the site I linked to reflects. Judaism accepts that there are things that we take on faith and that we try to understand but which are beyond us.



No, I don't expect you to be there either an dnor does your present rabbiis or Priest of the Most High.   But, as I was told, Jews/Judaism had it all recorded in their Ancestral Holy Book since the days of Adam, like a diary, passed over from generation to generation till to-day and updated, and considering how meticulous were their writers, I am sure there are lots of details to be found in that everliving Ancestral Holy Book. 


The conclusion you draw about something being "not 100% pure Mosaic" means that you haven't been reading. None of it is "Mosaic" in a creative sense as it is 100 percent godly as given TO Moses.



Saying godly doesn't mean Moses received every thing from God.   And reading certain part of Genesis, to be honest, I was put off.  The picture painted by the words as scribed is as though there was Adam as the first Man created on Earth.   To me that's magic.   And with the high regard that we Muslims have for Moses and understanding his dilemma, I don't think it was his handiworks in those writings.  Most likely Moses never narrated anything on creation, even though it was revealed to him and made to witness.  One good reason he was made a prophet and as a bani-Israel descended on earth and become a bani-Adam.


You find my response evasive because it does not give you the answer which you want to see or which you can use to explain your view of things. Judaism's view of the torah revelation is simultaneoulsy simple and extremely complex.



And after several thousand years, I don't think Judaism has any view at all in the revelations of their prophets.   And some of their prophets were even killed before they completed transmitting all that were revealed to them.  And to my reckoning, for every one single word revealed in a second, everyone would argue on it for a hundred years.  However, that's what my sense feeling is telling me .   I may be wrong.



No, that is what you are inferring. Judaism is resolved about its direction and yet constantly in flux. It is a traditional religion which is dynamic and changing. Judaism is based on historical texts and traditions but is constantly and reflectively evaluating itself. There is no single summarizable opinion because Judaism is exhaustive and complex. If you do not wish to read through links which give a more complete explanation than I can provide here then be aware that the conclusions you draw will often be incorrect.



It sad to say that bani-Israel (Children of Israel) hasn't really quite settled down as bani--Adam (Children of Adam) here, on earth.




“Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.” (HL Mencken)



That's because, in the matter of theology and even science, there'll come a point when reason would collapse.  The spirit and mind matter have to surrender and be dead.  What would then come out would be crystal clear - as they say. (visio)


and my answer stays the same. God spoke it to Moses who transcribed it. I don't see why that is so difficult.



What is the name of the God that spoke to Moses?  What exactly you mean by "transcribed"?


If Moses were to witness the whole metamorphosis of a butterfly in a few seconds, how long do you think it would take him to write all that he witnessed? It must be magic, don't you think?


Moses spoke to God and god spoke to Moses. Simple as that. Not through Gabriel, or Michael or anyone else. While god's appearance might not have been clear (a burning bush, a voice from within a cloud of smoke) there was no angel in between. Ex 33:11 is pretty clear about that. The zoharic metaphor is that Moses spoke to god as through a translucent mirror while the forefathers spoke as through a cloudy pane of glass. That is a difficult image to grasp but either way, he spoke to god on a level and in a directness that was unique to his position.



And thank you very much for these information.   That's what I was exactly looking for.  There were nothing as extraordinarily complex as what I had initially thought.  Those description, or metaphors as you say it, could easily be found in Hinduism and Buddhism text.   My sense feeling is that to Moses was not revealed the creation of the Universe and the creation of himself.  The explanation of this simple preliminary conclusion of mine is rather complex and complicated.   It has everything to do with the ancient history of what is referred to in the Al-Quran as bani-Israel (Children of Israel) and bani-Adam (Children of Adam).  Apart from that I am trying to understand why to certain section of bani-Israel they hate Gabriel, a word/name  first mentioned by Daniel during the Babylonian era.   Prophet Muhammadsaw has this mentioned in one of his hadith.


Finally, thank you for your time.   Sorry to having asked you too many questions.
 




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