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3 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 4:59PM #91
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,606

May 8, 2012 -- 4:42PM, ffb wrote:


"What matter why (spiritual) fire/flames and not (spiritual) light?  In term of rank/order in a spiritual consiousness spectrum, fire/flame is associated with a lower order of counsciousness than light.  In the Quranic sense logic, fire is associated with a manifestation of a jinnic entity, and, light is that of an angelic entity.  So what signal I get from Moses "burning bush" experience/event as given in both the Al-Quran and Taurat,  is that while both admits God/ALLAHswt "talked directly" to Musasaw (Moses), thru the veil of his personal guardian angel, the vision or witnessing granted upon him was limited to the lower jinnic spectrum - a fire and not an image of a Man which is always associated with a divine guardian angel to whom the ancient men of knowledge have given so many names."


OK, so that's what you get. I get that there was fire as the text says and that, as the text says, Mo spoke to god.




FFB


I get the same thing as you do, which is hardly surprising.


VISIO


Do you get this understanding from your view of Jinn?  (assuming the following is at all accurate):


Jinn (Arabic: جنǧinn, singular جني ǧinnī ; variant spelling djinn) or genies are supernatural creatures as mentioned in the Qur'an and often referred to in Arab folklore and Islamic mythology that occupy a parallel world to that of mankind. Together, jinn, humans and angels make up the three sentient creations of Allah. Religious sources say barely anything about them; however, the Qur'an mentions that Jinn are made of smokeless flame or "scorching fire".[1] Like human beings, the Jinn can also be good, evil, or neutrally benevolent.[2]


taken from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn


As you know Jewish tradition does not have the class of creation you refer to as Jinn (we also difffer in our understanding of what Angels are and are not, but we can discuss that later if you wish) Therefore, I know very little about Jinn and have a fair amount of difficulty understanding the purpose of Jinn in the Islamic cosmos.  Is there anyway you can give me a simple primer on Jinn - what they are, why they are, what they do, etc...? 

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3 years ago  ::  May 09, 2012 - 5:57PM #92
visio
Posts: 3,515

May 8, 2012 -- 4:59PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


May 8, 2012 -- 4:42PM, ffb wrote:


"What matter why (spiritual) fire/flames and not (spiritual) light?  In term of rank/order in a spiritual consiousness spectrum, fire/flame is associated with a lower order of counsciousness than light.  In the Quranic sense logic, fire is associated with a manifestation of a jinnic entity, and, light is that of an angelic entity.  So what signal I get from Moses "burning bush" experience/event as given in both the Al-Quran and Taurat,  is that while both admits God/ALLAHswt "talked directly" to Musasaw (Moses), thru the veil of his personal guardian angel, the vision or witnessing granted upon him was limited to the lower jinnic spectrum - a fire and not an image of a Man which is always associated with a divine guardian angel to whom the ancient men of knowledge have given so many names."


OK, so that's what you get. I get that there was fire as the text says and that, as the text says, Mo spoke to god.




FFB


I get the same thing as you do, which is hardly surprising.


VISIO


Do you get this understanding from your view of Jinn?  (assuming the following is at all accurate):


Jinn (Arabic: جنǧinn, singular جني ǧinnī ; variant spelling djinn) or genies are supernatural creatures as mentioned in the Qur'an and often referred to in Arab folklore and Islamic mythology that occupy a parallel world to that of mankind. Together, jinn, humans and angels make up the three sentient creations of Allah. Religious sources say barely anything about them; however, the Qur'an mentions that Jinn are made of smokeless flame or "scorching fire".[1] Like human beings, the Jinn can also be good, evil, or neutrally benevolent.[2]


taken from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn


As you know Jewish tradition does not have the class of creation you refer to as Jinn (we also difffer in our understanding of what Angels are and are not, but we can discuss that later if you wish) Therefore, I know very little about Jinn and have a fair amount of difficulty understanding the purpose of Jinn in the Islamic cosmos.  Is there anyway you can give me a simple primer on Jinn - what they are, why they are, what they do, etc...? 




I posted quite a bit of stuff in a thread "Muslim Creation Story".   In there you may find what you need, as an interest.  If you have diffciulties, it could be your understanding of your having or not having the triune contittuion of the Self of a Person in manifestation and also that your definition of soul and spirit are not in the same Arabic sense as implied in the Al-Quran. In the Al-Quran the soul is immortal and invincible until it is enlightened.  When it is enlightened you are the only witness other than That One God/ALLAHswt.   In the Al-Quranic sense, th esoul is the "Rope" of ALLAH swtto each of His sentient Being.   As it's consciouness matures and evolves it goes thru the whole spectrum of  "colour" changes, to put it in a simple language of a layman.

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3 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 10:53AM #93
visio
Posts: 3,515

May 8, 2012 -- 4:42PM, ffb wrote:



OK, so that's what you get. I get that there was fire as the text says and that, as the text says, Mo spoke to god.




I don't see "Mo spoke to god" in the text:   I see only God.   And that is in English, which is not the original Torah.   The original Torah is in Hebrew, as far as I am concerned.  Same as an English Quran is not the Al-Quran.  


We are back to the same question again.   What is the hebrew term for God as given in the text of the English Torah/Exodus:


Exodus  3: 6 And He said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look toward God.


Is it the four letter - aleph, lam, lam, hey?
   

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3 years ago  ::  May 10, 2012 - 1:37PM #94
ffb
Posts: 2,255

May 10, 2012 -- 10:53AM, visio wrote:

May 8, 2012 -- 4:42PM, ffb wrote:



OK, so that's what you get. I get that there was fire as the text says and that, as the text says, Mo spoke to god.




I don't see "Mo spoke to god" in the text:   I see only God.   And that is in English, which is not the original Torah.   The original Torah is in Hebrew, as far as I am concerned.  Same as an English Quran is not the Al-Quran.  


We are back to the same question again.   What is the hebrew term for God as given in the text of the English Torah/Exodus:


Exodus  3: 6 And He said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look toward God.


Is it the four letter - aleph, lam, lam, hey?
   


the conversation begins in verse 4 with the 4 letter name (sometimes written as yhvh), and then moves to the word "elohim" in the same verse.


the english used in the following translation for the 4 letter name is "lord" and for the root leading to "elohim" the word in English used is "god".


6. And He said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look toward God.


   ו. וַיֹּאמֶר אָנֹכִי אֱלֹהֵי אָבִיךָ אֱלֹהֵי אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהֵי יִצְחָק וֵאלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב וַיַּסְתֵּר מֹשֶׁה פָּנָיו כִּי יָרֵא מֵהַבִּיט אֶל הָאֱ־לֹהִים:



7. And the Lord said, "I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry because of their slave drivers, for I know their pains. 


 ז. וַיֹּאמֶר יְ־הֹוָ־ה רָאֹה רָאִיתִי אֶת עֳנִי עַמִּי אֲשֶׁר בְּמִצְרָיִם וְאֶת צַעֲקָתָם שָׁמַעְתִּי מִפְּנֵי נֹגְשָׂיו כִּי יָדַעְתִּי אֶת מַכְאֹבָיו


verse 11 has Mo responding to God.

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3 years ago  ::  May 11, 2012 - 6:18PM #95
visio
Posts: 3,515

May 10, 2012 -- 1:37PM, ffb wrote:


..............................



6. And He said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look toward God.


   ו. וַיֹּאמֶר אָנֹכִי אֱלֹהֵי אָבִיךָ אֱלֹהֵי אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהֵי יִצְחָק וֵאלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב וַיַּסְתֵּר מֹשֶׁה פָּנָיו כִּי יָרֵא מֵהַבִּיט אֶל הָאֱ־לֹהִים:


....................................




In the order of the descendancy, why the subject God of .........  stopped at the third generation?   Don't you think the following Exodus verses have the explanation?


20: 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.


20: 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,


20: 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.


It wasn't that Mo was afraid to look toward God, he was ashame of himself when the above verses were revealed to him {According to Muhammadsaw hadith, Musasaw (Moses) was a basically shy person but at the same time argumentative/stubborn, even when the angel of death  came to take his life (breath) away}. 


If  "punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation" is true the opposite of it could also be true and thus the verse can also read "rewarding the children for the good of the parents to the third and fourth generation"In simple terms, the understanding/knowledge of That One God/ALLAHswt could also change within a descendant line within three to four generation.   The Way in the Quranic Cosmic View would read the verse as such.  It is based on the principle that a soul (ruh) would progress and inherit a better spirit/mind (nafas), a bad spirit/mind would be inherited by the better soul (ruh) to be purified.  You may interchange the terms soul and spirit with your Hebrew's ruach and nephesh accordingly.  The only thing to note, the ruh (soul), in Arabic Quran, is immortal.


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3 years ago  ::  May 12, 2012 - 6:43AM #96
Ibn
Posts: 5,006

May 10, 2012 -- 1:37PM, ffb wrote:


..............................


6. And He said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look toward God.


   ו. וַיֹּאמֶר אָנֹכִי אֱלֹהֵי אָבִיךָ אֱלֹהֵי אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהֵי יִצְחָק וֵאלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב וַיַּסְתֵּר מֹשֶׁה פָּנָיו כִּי יָרֵא מֵהַבִּיט אֶל הָאֱ־לֹהִים:


....................................




May 11, 2012 -- 6:18PM, visio wrote:

In the order of the descendancy, why the subject God of .........  stopped at the third generation?   Don't you think the following Exodus verses have the explanation?


20: 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.


20: 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,


20: 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.



It's truly amazing the length God had to go (from human point of view) to guide Bani Israel, the fourth generation of Abraham! The verse number 5 is not literal as the attribute "jealous" is only human attribute. God is also never unjust. Punishing the children for the sins of their father is very unjust.


The Qur'an clarifies my point:


 [53.38] That no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another-


[23.62] And We do not lay on any soul a burden except to the extent of its ability, and with Us is a book which speaks the truth, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.


Of course Abraham wasn't punished for the sins of his father!

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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3 years ago  ::  May 12, 2012 - 11:19AM #97
visio
Posts: 3,515

May 12, 2012 -- 6:43AM, Ibn wrote:


It's truly amazing the length God had to go (from human point of view) to guide Bani Israel, the fourth generation of Abraham! The verse number 5 is not literal as the attribute "jealous" is only human attribute. God is also never unjust. Punishing the children for the sins of their father is very unjust.


The Qur'an clarifies my point:


 [53.38] That no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another-


[23.62] And We do not lay on any soul a burden except to the extent of its ability, and with Us is a book which speaks the truth, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.


Of course Abraham wasn't punished for the sins of his father!




Salaam, br. Ibn.


Those verses are referring to the soul aspect of the triune constaitution of our person/beingness (SELF = Soul + Inherited spirit/mind + inherited body).


In 53 : 38 the bearer of burden is the soul, the burden are both the inherited spirt/mind and body.   What the verse says is that the soul of X doesn't bear the burden inherited by soul of Y.   Each soul has to deal withreceptacular body the spirit/mind and body it has inherited.  It is thus called as the slave of ALLAHswt tasked to purify what it has inherited. 


The issue here is who do you think you really are?


The soul?  Inherited spirit/mind? The receptacular (formed) body?


If you think that you are the soul, do know that you are immortal, indestructible and uninjurable.  But, you (generic) cannot know this until you are detached from those inheritance.   In 23 : 62 ALLAHswt says He wouldn't burden the soul beyond its capacity.  It is therefore biased positively and slightly above the level of the spirit/mind and body it is inheriting, in the pairing and selection process.  


In the context of the verses Exodus 20 : 5, when Abraham soul departed, it left behind its spirit/mind for someone, among his descendants down the line to inherit during a period to last upto four generation.  After that period it "flew" to another branch of the tree where it would take it's covenant.   When the verse was revealed to Moses, he realised that his flock had missed the boat.   For this reason, he fought and argued with ALLAHswt, to get a new one.   And he was slapped with another set of Laws.   And ALLAHswt knew he would fail.

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3 years ago  ::  May 12, 2012 - 6:11PM #98
visio
Posts: 3,515

May 12, 2012 -- 11:19AM, visio wrote:


May 12, 2012 -- 6:43AM, Ibn wrote:


It's truly amazing the length God had to go (from human point of view) to guide Bani Israel, the fourth generation of Abraham! The verse number 5 is not literal as the attribute "jealous" is only human attribute. God is also never unjust. Punishing the children for the sins of their father is very unjust.


The Qur'an clarifies my point:


 [53.38] That no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another-


[23.62] And We do not lay on any soul a burden except to the extent of its ability, and with Us is a book which speaks the truth, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.


Of course Abraham wasn't punished for the sins of his father!




Salaam, br. Ibn.


Those verses are referring to the soul aspect of the triune constaitution of our person/beingness (SELF = Soul + Inherited spirit/mind + inherited body).


In 53 : 38 the bearer of burden is the soul, the burden are both the inherited spirt/mind and body.   What the verse says is that the soul of X doesn't bear the burden inherited by soul of Y.   Each soul has to deal withreceptacular body the spirit/mind and body it has inherited.  It is thus called as the slave of ALLAHswt tasked to purify what it has inherited. 


The issue here is who do you think you really are?


The soul?  Inherited spirit/mind? The receptacular (formed) body?


If you think that you are the soul, do know that you are immortal, indestructible and uninjurable.  But, you (generic) cannot know this until you are detached from those inheritance.   In 23 : 62 ALLAHswt says He wouldn't burden the soul beyond its capacity.  It is therefore biased positively and slightly above the level of the spirit/mind and body it is inheriting, in the pairing and selection process.  


In the context of the verses Exodus 20 : 5, when Abraham soul departed, it left behind its spirit/mind for someone, among his descendants down the line to inherit during a period to last upto four generation.  After that period it "flew" to another branch of the tree where it would take it's covenant.   When the verse was revealed to Moses, he realised that his flock had missed the boat.   For this reason, he fought and argued with ALLAHswt, to get a new one.   And he was slapped with another set of Laws.   And ALLAHswt knew he would fail.




Salaam br. Ibn,


You might have noticed I have been mentioning "inherited spirit/mind", "inherited body" in my posts on many occassion.  To get some idea, just set and give yourself a deep thought and perhaps contemplation on the following 3 verse of ALLAHswt's Prophets.


Torah Exodus  20: 5-6    You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,  but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.


GoN  94 : 2-4  "As all creatures come forth from the unseen into this world, so they return to the unseen, and so will they come again until they are purified. Let the bodies of those who depart be committed tot he elements, and the Father-Mother, who renews all things, shall give the angels charge over them and let the priestly attendant pray that their bodies may rest in peace, and their souls awake to a joyful resurrection." 


"There is a resurrection from the body, and there is a resurrection in the body. There is a raising out of the life of the flesh, and there is a falling into the life of the flesh. Let us pray for those who have crossed the death divide, and for those that are alive, and for those that are still to cross the birth divide; for all are One family in God. In God they live and move and have their being."


"The body that you lay in the grave, or that is consumed by fire, is not the body which will be, but they who come shall receive other bodies, yet their own, and as they have planted in one life, so shall they harvest in another. Blessed are they who suffer wrong in this life, for they shall have greater joy in the life to come. Blessed are they who have worked righteousness in this life, for they shall receive the crown of life."


[GoN = Gospel of the Nazarene


Comment :  Who is referred to, by Jesus, as the Father-Mother?]


Al-Quran Al-An’am   6 : 133   And your Lord is Rich, full of Mercy;  if He wills, He can destroy you, and in your place make whom He wills as your successors, as He raised you from the seed of other people.


[Comment:  Seed of other people = spirit/mind, bodies of man and jinn.  Our soul is the seed of Gabriel (the generic guardian angel) and thus of ALLAHswt. For each lifetime, there would always be a new set of seed of other people a soul is to inherit by the Will of ALLAHswt. And by default those could be a sinful ones or a pious/tighteous ones.  Let the coming ones be a lot easier on all of us. Thus, The fruit of the soul's enslavement to ALLAHswt is the seed of other people and  there is no greater love and compassion of a man and jinn to express other than to the seed of other people that is already with him/it.  Do our best with them -visio.]



Waalaikum salaam wrhmtllh.

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3 years ago  ::  May 13, 2012 - 10:58AM #99
visio
Posts: 3,515

May 12, 2012 -- 6:43AM, Ibn wrote:


Of course Abraham wasn't punished for the sins of his father!




Not the soul of Abraham.   Nor was the soul of his father.   Their spirit/mind would be punished.  The punishements would be reincarnate in an environment where they would be forced to, or, guided by those souls that ALLAHswt have chosen to inherit them.  Depending on the severity, ALLAHswt would chose the hard environment or the easy environment. ALLAHswt's warning of hell indicated a hard and difficutl way.   Just to appreciate to what extent the Exodud 20 : 5  could mean, think about the spirit/mind of Abraham's father.   It could be the spirit of Abraham's grandfather Abraham inherited two, three or four generation before.  It is for this reason prophets like Jesus made such statement as " I come with sword, to slay away a father from the son, daughter from the mother.

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3 years ago  ::  May 14, 2012 - 6:32AM #100
Ibn
Posts: 5,006

May 12, 2012 -- 6:11PM, visio wrote:


GoN  94 : 2-4  "As all creatures come forth from the unseen into this world, so they return to the unseen, and so will they come again until they are purified. Let the bodies of those who depart be committed tot he elements, and the Father-Mother, who renews all things, shall give the angels charge over them and let the priestly attendant pray that their bodies may rest in peace, and their souls awake to a joyful resurrection." 


"There is a resurrection from the body, and there is a resurrection in the body. There is a raising out of the life of the flesh, and there is a falling into the life of the flesh. Let us pray for those who have crossed the death divide, and for those that are alive, and for those that are still to cross the birth divide; for all are One family in God. In God they live and move and have their being."


"The body that you lay in the grave, or that is consumed by fire, is not the body which will be, but they who come shall receive other bodies, yet their own, and as they have planted in one life, so shall they harvest in another. Blessed are they who suffer wrong in this life, for they shall have greater joy in the life to come. Blessed are they who have worked righteousness in this life, for they shall receive the crown of life."


[GoN = Gospel of the Nazarene


Comment :  Who is referred to, by Jesus, as the Father-Mother?]




It looks like Jesus was referring to Father (God) and Mother (mother nature).


Also, there is mention of only "this life" and "the life to come" rather than any mention of any "previous life" and "the lives to come". Therefore, I don't believe in perpetual births and deaths cycles. There is going to be only one death at the end of our "this life" and there will be no more deaths even for those in hell.


[3.185] Every soul shall taste of death, and you shall only be paid fully your reward on the resurrection day; then whoever is removed far away from the fire and is made to enter the garden he indeed has attained the object; and the life of this world is nothing but a provision of vanities.


 [21.35] Every soul must taste of death and We try you by evil and good by way of probation; and to Us you shall be brought back.


[44.56] They shall not taste therein (in the garden) death except the first death, and He will save them from the punishment of the hell,


Salaam


Ibn


I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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