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Switch to Forum Live View Salafists distributing the Quran for free in Germany
2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 12:03PM #41
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Apr 25, 2012 -- 6:02PM, world citizen wrote:


IDBC ~


WC
What do you think about the Salafist Muslims handing out 25 million copies of the German translation of the Quran?


Doubt it would be any different than handing out 25 million copies of the English or Spanish translations.  All have commentaries of one sort or another.  Like leading a horse to water... can't make it drink.  People will have access to God's Word (if they want it) and can take/leave the commentary.




The added commentaries are inserted into the text to be misleading.  For example, they promote anti-Israel/Jewish sentiments as if the Quran is referring to current events.  That is the problem with the Salafist versions.  If you haven't seen one, that's great, but they are out there and they do great damage to the ummah.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 1:22PM #42
world citizen
Posts: 5,457

Apr 27, 2012 -- 12:03PM, Miraj wrote:

Apr 25, 2012 -- 6:02PM, world citizen wrote:


IDBC ~


WC
What do you think about the Salafist Muslims handing out 25 million copies of the German translation of the Quran?


Doubt it would be any different than handing out 25 million copies of the English or Spanish translations.  All have commentaries of one sort or another.  Like leading a horse to water... can't make it drink.  People will have access to God's Word (if they want it) and can take/leave the commentary.




The added commentaries are inserted into the text to be misleading.  For example, they promote anti-Israel/Jewish sentiments as if the Quran is referring to current events.  That is the problem with the Salafist versions.  If you haven't seen one, that's great, but they are out there and they do great damage to the ummah.


Salaam, Miraj ~


If the commentaries are interwoven within the sura themselves, then they are altering the Word of God which is a form of blasphemy.  Such an action brings the following to mind:


And there are those who put up a mosque by way of mischief and infidelity, to disunite the believers, and in preparation for one who warred against Allah and His Messenger aforetime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; but Allah doth declare that they are certainly liars.  (S. 9:107)

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 1:59PM #43
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:22PM, world citizen wrote:

Apr 27, 2012 -- 12:03PM, Miraj wrote:


Apr 25, 2012 -- 6:02PM, world citizen wrote:


IDBC ~


WC
What do you think about the Salafist Muslims handing out 25 million copies of the German translation of the Quran?


Doubt it would be any different than handing out 25 million copies of the English or Spanish translations.  All have commentaries of one sort or another.  Like leading a horse to water... can't make it drink.  People will have access to God's Word (if they want it) and can take/leave the commentary.




The added commentaries are inserted into the text to be misleading.  For example, they promote anti-Israel/Jewish sentiments as if the Quran is referring to current events.  That is the problem with the Salafist versions.  If you haven't seen one, that's great, but they are out there and they do great damage to the ummah.




Salaam, Miraj ~


If the commentaries are interwoven within the sura themselves, then they are altering the Word of God which is a form of blasphemy.  Such an action brings the following to mind:


And there are those who put up a mosque by way of mischief and infidelity, to disunite the believers, and in preparation for one who warred against Allah and His Messenger aforetime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; but Allah doth declare that they are certainly liars.  (S. 9:107)




Comments are inserted, in parentheses, into the flow of the text to "explain" the text.  It's not that this isn't done, but it's legitimately done as footnotes and does not involve pushing a political agenda.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 11:01AM #44
BDboy
Posts: 5,394

Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:23AM, visio wrote:


Wow!  I have a simple and straight forward question on that.   What of Jesus returning - soul, spirit/mind or body?  


>>>>>>>>> This topic is not exactly very important to me (Personally). But since you asked, I'll try to answer you.


Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) will return like an average human being and spiritually (As per Islamic faith) he will be a Muslim.


Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:23AM, visio wrote:


Where in the Al-Quran it is mentioned and what clear hadith confirming it?



>>>>>>>>> Following verses will answer your question....


And [on account of] their saying: "We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Messenger of Allah." They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. (Surat an-Nisa', 157)


According to Islamic teachings, we feel Jesus (PBUH) was taken alive straight to Allah (SWT).


Allah raised him [Jesus] up to Himself. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise. (Surat an-Nisa', 158)


We ALSO feel Jesus will return as a Muslim. And the noble Qur'an states how he'll be greeted by Jews and Christians (AKA people of the book).


There is not one of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who will not believe in him before he dies; and on the Day of Resurrection he [Jesus] will be a witness against them. (Surat an-Nisa', 159)



It is interesting that, even the holy Bible confirms such statement. Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) never claimed to be "God" or asked anyone to worship him. He praised God like every previous messengers did before him and the last messenger of Allah (PBUH), who followed him. The Bible talks about that day....


The KJV Strong's Version Matthew 7


******************************************************


7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into
the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

7:22 many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And
in thy name done many wonderful works?


7:23 and then will I profess unto them *, I never knew you:
 depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


 ===============================================


And some Hadiths


"It (the Day of Judgment) will not come until you see ten signs," and (in this connection) he mentioned the smoke, the dajjal, the Beast, the rising of the Sun from the west, the descent of Jesus son of Mary…


(Sahih Muslim)


By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people as a just ruler.


 (Sahih al-Bukhari)


Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their (Muslims') commander will invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some (amongst you). This is the honor from Allah for this Ummah (nation).


(Sahih Muslim)


 


=========================================


Hope my answer was some help to you.


May peace be unto you.  Smile



[resized to conform with margins - wc]

Moderated by world citizen on Apr 28, 2012 - 12:39PM
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 5:56PM #45
visio
Posts: 3,250

Assalamualaikum wrhmtllh, BD.


Thank you very much for your response.   Alhamdhullilah, it is very nice and comforting to have another Muslim making attempts to comments and explain this specific prophecy which have have cluttered across the divides of the ummah.   I find the Al-Quranic verses you quoted adds another dimension at how we read/interpret them as themselves, separately  of their own context  and also possible explanation for the subject prophecy, which to me is very specific, in its statement.  I could see your thoughtline on 4 : 157, 158 & 159.  However, I don't agree that these verses carry any signal/indication to the specific kind of Isasaw (Jesus) return which is tied up to the specific end time prophecy that people are talking about  - Muslims or non-Muslims.   The general connotation of the verses points straight to certain aspects that God/ALLAHswt has it installed in the order of the Divine Grand Design for each and everyone of us and Isasaw (Jesus), Muhammadsaw, .......... and in all the rest of the prophets there are/were no diiference.   4 : 159 is quite a tricky one which require an Arabic  transliteration and most appropriate English translation, to match the "sound language" in the absence of "body language".   Please see my comments/opinions, below,  that I would like to share them with you.   Certainly, I welcome your idea and stretch others of their thinking.  For a moment I just thought you might have got it.  But re-reading the text again (4 : 159), as translated in my native language, there is a big variance.      


 


Apr 28, 2012 -- 11:01AM, BDboy wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:23AM, visio wrote:


Wow!  I have a simple and straight forward question on that.   What of Jesus returning - soul, spirit/mind or body?  


>>>>>>>>> This topic is not exactly very important to me (Personally). But since you asked, I'll try to answer you.


Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) will return like an average human being and spiritually (As per Islamic faith) he will be a Muslim.


Apr 27, 2012 -- 11:23AM, visio wrote:


Where in the Al-Quran it is mentioned and what clear hadith confirming it?



>>>>>>>>> Following verses will answer your question....


And [on account of] their saying: "We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Messenger of Allah." They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. (Surat an-Nisa', 157)


According to Islamic teachings, we feel Jesus (PBUH) was taken alive straight to Allah (SWT).


Allah raised him [Jesus] up to Himself. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise. (Surat an-Nisa', 158)




To me these two verses simply indicate a prophetic ascension (mi'raj) just as Prophet Muhammadsaw's Isra' & Mi'raj experience.  There were differences in form and processes but that would call for a lenghty write up.   The whole things can be viewed as a "sleep" experience during which prophets would be made witness to witness the main crunch  of creation process of the Universes and of their ownselves.  In the case of Muhammadsaw's his ascension involved the raising of all the three constituent - soul, spirit/mind and body (bi jismihi) and occured for a night. For Isasaw (Jesus) it was only for both soul and spirit/mind.  Thus they were able to play around his body for 3-days.     


We ALSO feel Jesus will return as a Muslim. And the noble Qur'an states how he'll be greeted by Jews and Christians (AKA people of the book).


There is not one of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who will not believe in him before he dies; and on the Day of Resurrection he [Jesus] will be a witness against them. (Surat an-Nisa', 159)




May I know who you referred to as 'we"?  And, I don't feel  Jesus will return as a Muslim. Instead, I believe, as repeatedly said in the Al-Quran that not only Jesus but every soul of man and jinn would return as muslims.   By "return" I mean meeting with God/ALLAHswt.  That covers everyone - Muslim or non-Muslims.   And on that day ALLAHswt's would let each and everyone of them (of soul and/or spirit) know and realise the Truth, and thus ALLAHswt. And like what prophets have gone thru in their ascension (mi'raj), everyone of them would go thru the same experience but with judgement and appropriate dispensation plan for individual soul and spirit, by collective agreement and predeterminism/covenant ratification.


Here is the transliteration of 4 : 159 and it's alternative translation:


Wa 'im-min 'Ahlil-Kitaabi (And there is none of the people of the Book) 'ilaa (except) layu'minanna (those faithful ones who must believe) bihee (in him -Isasaw/Jesus) qabla mawtihee (before his/her death) wa yawmal-qiyaamati (and on the Day of Judgement) yakoonu (the convincing would be)  'alayhim (upon him/her) shaheedaa (as a party of those who witness).   


In English the verse would read wholly as :


An-Nisa 5 : 159   And there is none of the people of the Book except those faithful ones who must believe in him (Isasaw/Jesus) before his/her death and on the Day of Judgement, the convincing would be upon him/her, as a party of those who witness. 


There is no such thing as End Time in the Al-Quran.   Qiyamat is adressed by almost 29 attributes/names in the Al-Quran.  They are just referring to different lifetime and death. cycles.  There is that Final Return mentioned a few time in the Al-Quran but it refers to when every soul has  the angelic stage (liberated of cycles of life and death experience) and another spirit had been purified and be made an angel by it, and it enters ALLAHswt's Kingdom for good, thus ending a unit of creation and regeneration of a new one.  The Slave finally enters the Master's Chambers. 


Actually the people of the book mentioned refers specifically to those Jews who deny Isasaw (Jesus) as their prophet/messiah to show/remind them the Way to God specific for bani_israel (Children of Israel) of the days.


It is interesting that, even the holy Bible confirms such statement. Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) never claimed to be "God" or asked anyone to worship him. He praised God like every previous messengers did before him and the last messenger of Allah (PBUH), who followed him. The Bible talks about that day....


The KJV Strong's Version Matthew 7


******************************************************


7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into
the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

7:22 many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And
in thy name done many wonderful works?


7:23 and then will I profess unto them *, I never knew you:
 depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


 ===============================================





I would leave my comments on these for another occassion, if necessary an dappropriate. 


And some Hadiths


"It (the Day of Judgment) will not come until you see ten signs," and (in this connection) he mentioned the smoke, the dajjal, the Beast, the rising of the Sun from the west, the descent of Jesus son of Mary…


(Sahih Muslim)


By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people as a just ruler.


 (Sahih al-Bukhari)


Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their (Muslims') commander will invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some (amongst you). This is the honor from Allah for this Ummah (nation).


(Sahih Muslim)




Could you please provide reference nos. of these hadiths? 


 



Hope my answer was some help to you.


May peace be unto you.




Caertainly.  It highlightened certain lines in the whole spectrum of spirit/mind conditioning.



[resized to conform with margins - wc]


 


P.S.   On a second thought, in submission of your well strecthed out thought line had convinced me by my response to them, that the Al-Quran has the complete theology to explain away the many aberrations, elusion and delusion that plague some section in the Muslim community -from within and from without.   And that include those made by the salafist in the commentaries they have made in their forms of the Al-Quran that they have distributed around.   My experience Muslims, in general, have to be re-educated in the esoteric aspects of Islam and the Al-Quran to build up their Ihsan (perfection) not only in relation to their Faith (aqeeda/creed) and Islam (the Works) but also in relation to others (non-Muslims).  There should be a revival of esotericism in all Islamic learning instritution which currently put so much emphasis on book-learning and simplistic literal interpretation of both the Al-Quran and Hadiths.  There are two elements in the Al-Quran & Hadiths or call it doctrine, if you like, that were not investigated in the past, including the era of Islamic Sufism.  And they are about creation and cycles of life and death which is the backbone of qada' (Divine order of the whole Universe) & qadar (staged out, incremental predestination of souls, spirits and matters)  and of the 29 or more of Quranic attribution of the qiyamat (endings/ages).   


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