Hi Abdullah!

I really enjoyed the links you have sent to me and have added them to my favorites...thank you!

I just love when Muslims go in the previous Scriptures to make links...it is my favorite thing to do!  I never had a chance to do it this thoroughly and feel that I'm learning a lot...thank you!

You write:

Those who follow the Apostle, the unlettered Prophet, Whom they find mentioned in their own Scriptures, in the Torah and the Gospel... (Holy Qu'ran: VII - 157; Translation: Yusif Ali)

That is very interesting...I didn't know things like this were written in the Koran...thank you for sharing!

Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:43AM, Dudette wrote:

Hi visio!

From what I know of the prophecies announcing the Messiah in the Hebrew Scriptures, Jesus fits it more that Muhammad.

This was what I supposed the first generation of Jesus Hebrew disciples had the understanding and believed in and it was purely spiritiual in nature.   Jesus came to deliver the higher laws specific for the Children of Israel (Quranic bani-Israel).   What is meant by Children of Israel?   In the Al-Quran this term (bani-Israel) is mentioned quite often.   However, please don't be surprised even educated and learned Muslims couldn't define it exactly until they get the whole big picture of God/ALLAHswt Grand Design of Creation.  Without going into detailed explanation let me just put this.   The human nature, in its spirit originated from two spheres - the earth and the heavenly sky. God/ALLAHswt breath in a soul complex, with an earthly spirit (of dead animals) to it, into the offspring of a human.   Generically. this is referred to in the Al-Quran as Children of Adam.   God/ALLAHswt also breath in a soul, with the heavenly spirit adsorbed to it, into the offsring of what is referred to in the Al-Quran as, a jinn.   Generically, this is referred to as Children of Israel (the kingdom nearer to God/ALLAHswt, relatively, than Children of Adam.  In the jinn kingdom there are no prophets/messengers.   And God/ALLAHswt doesn't teach angels to speak, nor,  is knowledge on creation is given.   That is why it is mentioned in the Al-Quran God/ALLAHswt honoured the Children of Adam and both the angels and jinn are ordered to prostrate themselves before human (man).  In the kingdom of jinn (Israel), like human on earth, is a cycle of life and death.  To raise their spirits back to God/ALLAHswt some of those spirits are chosen to reincarnate as human.  For simplicity sake, as human they are also referred to as Children of Israel based on the origin of their spirits.

So to make this short, in the exoteric sense of messiahship/messengership Al-Quran/Islam recognises the Messiahship of Jesus for Children of Israel.  And my take on this is that Children of Israel is not exclusive to Jews only.  It covers across the whole humanity upon those who believe there is another spiritual kingdom (of beings) beyond this earthly kingdom of the flesh and blood, where good and evil still exist at much more refined levels.  The requirement (Laws) set for the Children of Israel, as revealed to Jesus, are quite demanding (based on my read on GoN (Gospel of Nazarene).  It demands almost a monastic approach to life.       

You also write:

That is what one can expect with revealed scriptures authored by men.   You cannot equate it with the Al-Quran.   It is a singly authored by God/ALLAHswt and transmitted thru the tongue of Muhammad^saw in the chosen language of Arabic which I gather resemble closely Aramaic. 

I will give you the the Koran has more unity because it is from the same author.  However, if Jews and Christians think that God was talking through the Prophets and Christians add that God inspired the New Testament, isn't it pretty much the same thing as Muslims thinking that Allah transmitted his message through Muhammad?  Am I missing something?

If you have read the whole of the Al-Quran it would become pretty obvious that about 25 prophets are mentioned starting from the generically named Adam, Idris, Noah and all the way to Jesus.  Most of them were of bani-Israel and others (about 4 of them) were bani-Adam (excluding Adam. Ha! Ha! Please don’t ask me why.   Another long and winding story.)  The revelation and messages transmitted thru bani-Israel prophets were focussed mainly on raising up their spirits back to where they originated i.e. the higher kingdom of Israel.  The degree of difficulties were very high across all ages and therefore the packages were given in increments and dictated by the priority of the time.

Musasaw (Moses) focussed on the lower laws i.e. Laws to govern them expected as the Children of Adam as a part of their humanism (in flesh and blood and inherited spirit of their human mothers).  Isa^saw (Jesus) focussed on the higher laws in preparation as well as speeding up their return to the higher kingdom of Israel.   Since Children of Adam have also to pass thru that kingdom, God/ALLAH^swt  has them both integrated in the Al-Quran.  That is what triggering your sense feeling of unity in the Al-Quran.   There are no doubt that there were pious and righteous who were/are blessed with receiving divine inspiration/blessing but there were/are limited to certain specific issues of clarification of those revealed to earlier prophets.   For Muslims they were/are focussed on each and every one of the verses in the Al-Quran.   When God/ALLAH^swt says it is a complete and perfected (over all previous) revelation, Muslims have faith and belief in it.   And we pray to God/ALLAH^swt to help make it clearer in our standing.   Even to Muhammad^saw was told to recite what were told by Gabriel (first).   Then God/ALLAH^swt would follow up with explanation (then or later).   In the Al-Quran God/ALLAH^swt has it revealed that there would always be a community of people among mankind who would explain (His) Truth and establish (His) Justice.  Muslims understanding on this is Al-Quranic Truth and Al-Quranic Justice.   And, it is up to God/ALLAH^swt to open up their hearts to accept or reject those explanations.   

I'm curious, who is "we" in:

And this (Quran) is a blessed Book which We have sent down, confirming which came before it, so that you may warn the Mother of Towns (Makkah) and all those around it.   

God/ALLAH^swt in the veil of billions of guardian angels of bani-Adam plus billions of guardian angels of bani-Israel in the jinn kingdom plus billions of other angels in the angelic kingdom and plus 70,000 angels queing up at the Gate to enter the Kingdom of God/ALLAH^swt in their Final Return. I could explain this further but that would involve another lengthy explanation on spiritual enlightenment process (sufism, gnosticism, spiritual yoga and any other that is similar to anyone of them).

I'm sure glad I have a Koran at home.

That certainly would help you in understanding what we are, to the best of our knowledge.   As what Muslims would normally say only God/ALLAH^swt  knows best.  If you read it differently from us just let me know .   Please don't forget to mention whose English translation you are using.  Unless I mention otherwise, please take it that I am using Al-Hillali & Mukhsin Khan (with most bracketted terms that are questionable/overassumed ignored). 

Thank you for taking the time!

You’re welcome. And thank you for asking of what I consider is a complex issue.  That is why my response is too long for comfort.   In trying to make it clear for you, I also have to make it clear to my fellow Muslim brothers and sisters who would also may find some benefits.   Each of us are at different level of God/ALLAH^swt Knowledge.  For the little Quran that we have been given, everyone has to maximise their understanding  

Hi Dudette,

before I forgot here is the hadith drawing up a distinction between Adam and Moses, as promised in my earlier post.

Arabic reference : : Book 60, Hadith 3444

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. 'You are Adam whose mistake expelled you from Paradise.' Adam said to him, 'You are Moses whom Allah selected as His Messenger and as the one to whom He spoke directly; yet you blame me for a thing which had already been written in my fate before my creation?"' Allah's Apostle said twice, "So, Adam overpowered Moses."

This story is a continuation of what followed in Muhammad^saw''s own words after the Quranic verse that says God/ALLAH^swt sent both Adam and the arogant and rebellious angels to the earth:

Al-Baqarah 2 : 36   Then the Shaitan (Satan) made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were.   We said:   "Get you down, with enmity between yourselves.   On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time.

Thus a division was created in our humanity - Children of Adam (bani-Adam) and Children of Israel (bani-Israel). N.B.  God/ALLAH^swt declassified and relegated angels to both the kingdom of jinn and man.   Please note also angels and jinn mentioned are different levels of consciousness energies/forces.  They only become beings when ensouled.  This is another level of theology that would require a detailed explanation and rooted down in the Quranic ceration story.   Even many learned Muslims got this confused and started saying Angels and Jinn were created first before Adam.   That is only true if we are talking about the consciousness energy/force level  of the receptacle/framework of the soul that, next, to be created beginning with Man (Adam) an dhis spouce. [Please note:  in it;s original Arabic there is no where the specific name of Eve (Arabic Hawa) is mentioned in the context of creation.]  God/ALLAH^swt statement on creation always state that everything is created in pairs.  So Adam and a female (not necessarily to be his women spouse on earth) were created sumultaneously.  

Hello again visio!

Is the apostle referred to in this statement Muhammad?

Allah's Apostle said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other.

Apr 16, 2012 -- 10:49AM, Dudette wrote:

Hi visio!

I really appreciate you taking the time...thank you!

What is the Gospel of Nazarene?

I was referred to it by one poster in the Christianity board.   When I googled it I found it online and I found it very interesting in term of details.   There was a commentary which said that it was an ancient Hebrew text of the Gospel which researchers about 100 years ago discovered at a basement dump of the Vatican.   It was said that it was the text used by the ancient low-class and fringed out Jewish tribe/clan referred to as the Ebionites/Nazarenes.   If you notice in the Al-Quran there is no such word as Christian being used to refer to the followers of Jesus.  The term used is Nasarani, inspite of the fact that Christianity had been canonised a few hundred years before Muhammad^saw/Al-Quran.   My instinct tells me that those pre-Islamic followers of Isasaw (Jesus) thriving in and around South Arabia were most likely the Nazarenes/Ebionites who could have been the followers of the Gospel of Nazarene.   Irrespective of they did or didn't, I found the narratives in it are informative and  pre-affirmed the existence of what is being referred to as the Kingdom of the Jinn (Israel) of the Al-Quran.  It doesn't surprise me that Jesus was popular among the pagan Greeks and/or Hellenists because in their life-experiences they do encounter with these "invincible" beings.  Islam/Al-Quran acknowledges this and belief in its exsitence is part of the Islamic Six Articles of Faith.   That is why you will find statements in the Al-Quran it says it is the book for both mankind and jinnkind.  You can take it from me that every mankind will finally, in stages, end up being graduated as a jinnkind in Israel a.k.a the heavens, the next kingdom before the angelic kingdom (paradise).

I haven't read the whole Koran (nor have I the Tanakh or New Tetament).

So you say that about 25 prophets are mentioned in the Koran?  Can I ask why none of the books of Prophets were kept in for the Koran?

Can you please phrase this out again?  I am not clear on the question.  And I am glad that I know that you are a French.

Thank you for making the distinction between Moses' and Jesus' roles!

And we Muslims accept both of them as Prophets from whom we can learn about God/ALLAHswt Works and our journey in those Works.

I'm reading a French version of the Koran (it mentions something about Ifta and Saudi Arabia).

What is Ifta? 

You know something.   I don't speak Arabic but I could read Al-Quranic Arabic.  I have to go for English/my native language translation to understand and reinterpret it for my ownself.   One must remember that scriptural texts always come in parables, similitudes and other figurative literary devices.   And that calls for additional interpretation.   Vocabulary meanings may not apply all the time.   Asking other people of different scriptural background would certainly help in a big way, however, please do you own thinking and be as open-minded as possible.