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2 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 2:18PM #81
sallum
Posts: 550

Mar 19, 2012 -- 9:19AM, Lilwabbit wrote:

Mar 19, 2012 -- 7:31AM, Ibn wrote:


Allah's wrath is on anyone who disbelieves in the revelation from Allah (2:61) including those who were before believing in Allah and the last day.



No it's not.


(002.062) Verily, those who have attained to faith (amanú), as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians - all who believe (amaná) in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.


(003.113-5) They are not all alike: among the followers of earlier revelation there are upright people, who recite God's messages throughout the night, and prostrate themselves. They believe (umimún) in God and the Last Day, and enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong, and vie with one another in doing good works: and these are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, they shall never be denied the reward thereof: for, God has full knowledge of those who are conscious of Him.


What part of "the followers of earlier revelation" do you not understand? The Qur'án does not call those who have accepted the Qur'án as "the followers of earlier revelation", nor does it call them "those who follow the Jewish faith", "Christians" or "Sabians". It calls them "believers". Yet, Qur'án is explicit that among those who follow an earlier revelation there are people who shall not have any fear nor shall they grieve. If Allah's wrath was upon them as you seem to claim, they would surely need to have some fear and grief.


Moreover, nowhere does it say that the reward of these "followers of earlier revelation" is conditional upon them accepting the Qur'án. However, it does clearly state that their reward and freedom from fear is conditional upon belief in God, the Last Day and the doing of good. The rest is just your own invention. Those Jews that accepted the Qur'án are called "believers". They are no longer called "followers of an earlier revelation". These verses clearly state that there are among "those who follow an earlier revelation" good God-believing folks that will enter paradise. Plain and simple. To interpret otherwise is absurd.


The "disbelievers" in other verses refer usually to those people who not only did not accept the Qur'án but did something far worse. They turned against the Muslims, betrayed them and leagued themselves with their enemies. "Disbelievers" does not mean literally every single person in the world who does not accept the Qur'án for multifarious personal reasons. Just like "Jews not to be intimately befriended with" does not refer to every single Jew in the world, but rather the Medinan Jews (or the bulk of them) who leagued themselves with the Meccan Quraysh against the muhajirún. God is a merciful (rahmán) and loving (wadúd) God. He is reasonable. He sees people's hearts and sees the world isn't black and white. People are neither purely good nor purely evil. He sees the countless men and women in the world that are not believers in the Qur'án, but who are sincerely God-fearing, God-loving and genuinely inspired by God's earlier revelations. God demonstrates His love and ability to appreciate these different shades of grey in the two beautiful verses above. You should too, Ibn.


The more you deny the explicit words and intended meanings of the Qur'án by a literalist and extreme reading of terms like "disbeliever", the more absurd your argument gets, the more internal contradictions your Qur'án contains, and the more evil your God sounds. If you really believe in such a God, then it has nothing to do with the Qur'án.


Kind regards,


LilWabbit


 


Almumininah = believers. Who and how are they?


 


1-Believes of the reveal of the holy Qur'an.


Almuminina : 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messenger., and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.


2:285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles…… ……..


2- True followers of earlier revelation, Al Zabour (Psalms), Torah,  Injeel, and  ALL other earlier holy revelation we do not know the details but we do know that  those "revelations" were stated  along the nation's olden times and diverge demographics.


 


 16:36 For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle, (with the Command), "Serve Allah,  ……………..


Those all the believers from day one till the (Resurrection) Baath.


……..


And the nations were their "ethos" do exist @ the Qur'an's stage of reveals age, are;


A* Almoslimoona = 4:136/  2:285 as per above


B* Al'lazeena hadoo= Jewish


C* Annasarah = Christian


D* Al'sabieena = all other than the above two ethos.


These A, B, C, and D are all mankind ever do exiting from the Age Of the Holy Qur'an and up to the Resurrection time.


Now with these understandings the verse 2:62 is tell about all believers (faith ethos) prior and later formers ((   shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.))


There were "pure" Believers with Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed and many other Prophets and Messengers peace be upon them all.  And they are reward.


Whatever they were dressed (lost or astray) in their past will not cause them rejection if they truly reach and died with the "Faith's Ethos" they will get their REWARD not doubt.  


In other hand their past will not evade them not to change to the right path.


And this principle is not applicable with Man's Law, they look and search into the past of a man as soon as they catch a fault even for that slim and old one, then they jump and face him with, and they convict him accordingly. Daily we see such this In USA and Europe.


While Allah all mighty takes the forgiveness since the sinner stated firmly his self-regret. 


Man's law has no mercy has no value.   


In few words, every "believer" ((whatever his past is- every righteousness individuals)) in the past, present, and in future will be rewarded.  The matter is not what Believer was but it is what he is @ the time before he expired.


So it is not right to say all "Jewish are in hill,''' because people of Moses were "Bani Israel" And are supposed to be "Jew" with today perception, and were "true believers"  but any other than those "JEW" who reject Jesus saw and Mohammed saw as well, they are not the same "Jew" of  "pure Bani Israel".  UNLESS THEY TURN TO BELIEVE WITH MOHAMMEDsaw, TURN TO CONVERT TO ISLAM,… OTHERWIZE THEY ARE "discards" AND ARE NOT ENCLUDE WITH THE Verse's Reward.


salam   

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 2:23PM #82
Miraj
Posts: 5,023

Mar 20, 2012 -- 12:20PM, visio wrote:


Does it, then,  mean that the Sharia' and Fiqh in the formal study of Islam is not man-made?




Since our knowledge is limited by our lack of divinity, everything about study is man-made.  Yet, we have been commanded by Allah to study and learn, even if it takes us to China.


Mar 20, 2012 -- 12:20PM, visio wrote:


Do you then agree that this formal study of asl-ad-deen is about what are the Laws (irrespective of which are the first and which are the last) and not about the origin/cause of the Law?


To me the what can be regarded as Laws in the Al-Quran are those referred to as clear verses which form the basis of Sharia' and Fiqh.   These, mostly are matters to be obeyed without question.   If ALLAHswt commanded different set of instruction to men and women, are they to be disobeyed?  



The legislative verses, about 10% of the Qur'an, are immutable and binding on all of us, male and female.


Mar 20, 2012 -- 12:20PM, visio wrote:


To give you or anyone, here, the benefit of the doubt, for 1000 years many of those so-called ulama//scholars have failed to explain all the deeper reasons for some of the differences in those (lawful) instruction.   Simply they couldn't see the basic constitution i.e. the bigger picture/cosmology of the whole facets of Faith (Iman), Islam (the Way/Works) and Ihsan (Perfection), the understanding of which is embedded in the Creation Story of the Al-Quran.   If they did see, as Prophet Muhammadsaw did, the questions could have been adressed and resolved centuries of years ago.   To-day, sciences have removed some of the veils in the world of the unseen (ghaib) and, therefore, there are plenty of opportunities surfacing out to enable Muslims upgrade their understanding of the Constitution of Islam in the Al-Quran, in it's totality.



So true and beautifully expressed. Something that the early ulema were always cautious about avoiding was the proclaimation their determinations were binding for all time and for all Muslims in all places. They understood not only that their theological understanding was fallible, but that their experience and placement in a particular time and space gave them a specific myopia that barred them from seeing the future or the circumstances of Muslims living in other times and places.  The explicit prohibtion against misleading others unless one intends to carry the burden of their sins was real to them.  They knew that there was/is a need for itjihad and reinterpretation in areas under dispute and that blind taqlid was not good for the ummah.  In this, they were very wise.  


Mar 20, 2012 -- 12:20PM, visio wrote:


Personally, I have taken some of these opportunities as demonstrated/reflected in all my post on B'net which had always been centred around the Al-Quranic Creation Story.   Believe me or not, for those who can see it, all the Laws in the Al-Quran fits in very well with the Constitution of the entire framework of the Divine Scheme of Things which, in manifestation sparked of before the creation of each of our First Man/Woman, but, after the creation of the phenomenal earth and the heavenly cosmos.  [Fussilat 41 : 11].


When talking about many of the sensitive issues on women, it wouldn't be as simple as one would wish for.   I used to question even ALLAHswt's of why He only taught Adam's all the Names but not Eve which, thus, ending up all known Prophets were men.   If angels are without names, why call it Gabriel?


And my question to you is that if Muslim men beat their wives, who gave birth to them?  




God is the Creator of all things.  There is a punishment made known for men who beat and mistreat their wives.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 3:48PM #83
Ibn
Posts: 4,232

Mar 20, 2012 -- 1:56PM, Miraj wrote:


Mar 20, 2012 -- 4:55AM, Ibn wrote:


Wrong! Belief of 3 gods (shirk of trinity) was not quite the same as today. For that reason, I agree with brother visio.  



Then, both of you are wrong.



That makes a Muslim trinity. LOL!


 

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 4:30PM #84
Ibn
Posts: 4,232

Mar 20, 2012 -- 2:18PM, sallum wrote:

Almumininah = believers. Who and how are they?


1-Believes of the reveal of the holy Qur'an.


Almuminina : 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messenger., and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.


2:285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles…… ……..



The condition, "until they believe", for marriage in the Qur'an 2:221 is not about believing in any revelation in the past but believing in all the revelations from God, including the revelation of the Qur'an, as appropriately declared in the above verses as "His Books" and "His Messengers" or "His apostles". Anyone rejecting "His Book" (the Qur'an) or the Messenger (Muhammad) does not meet the criterion "until they believe" after these verses had been revealed.


The debate here is not about reward for good or bad deeds for followers of the earlier revelations but in which revelation or revelations is one to "believe" to meet the condition "until they believe" in 2:221 before marriage with a Muslima can go ahead.


The Messenger (pbuh) and his Companions knew what it meant by "until they believe", the reason they did not let their daughters get married to Jews or Christians or any other unbeliever (of the Qur'an) after the revelation of 2:221. 


Salaam


Ibn

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 5:13PM #85
steven_guy
Posts: 11,574

Singapore is fairly liberal in relation to heterosexual marriage, but one can be put in prison for being Gay or Lesbian in Singapore. I think it carries a 10 year prison sentence.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 7:20PM #86
Miraj
Posts: 5,023

Mar 20, 2012 -- 4:30PM, Ibn wrote:


Mar 20, 2012 -- 2:18PM, sallum wrote:

Almumininah = believers. Who and how are they?


1-Believes of the reveal of the holy Qur'an.


Almuminina : 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messenger., and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.


2:285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles…… ……..



The condition, "until they believe", for marriage in the Qur'an 2:221 is not about believing in any revelation in the past but believing in all the revelations from God, including the revelation of the Qur'an, as appropriately declared in the above verses as "His Books" and "His Messengers" or "His apostles". Anyone rejecting "His Book" (the Qur'an) or the Messenger (Muhammad) does not meet the criterion "until they believe" after these verses had been revealed.


The debate here is not about reward for good or bad deeds for followers of the earlier revelations but in which revelation or revelations is one to "believe" to meet the condition "until they believe" in 2:221 before marriage with a Muslima can go ahead.


The Messenger (pbuh) and his Companions knew what it meant by "until they believe", the reason they did not let their daughters get married to Jews or Christians or any other unbeliever (of the Qur'an) after the revelation of 2:221. 


Salaam


Ibn




5:5 tells us what kind of non-Muslims a Muslima can marry: the same kind a Muslim man can marry.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Mar 20, 2012 - 8:38PM #87
visio
Posts: 3,126

Mar 20, 2012 -- 5:13PM, steven_guy wrote:


Singapore is fairly liberal in relation to heterosexual marriage, but one can be put in prison for being Gay or Lesbian in Singapore. I think it carries a 10 year prison sentence.




I don't think the OP is about what is the Common Law in Singapore is.   It is about the Islamic Law on (interfaith) marriages as applied by the Community of Muslims in Singapore and thus reflecting their interpretation of the Sharia' and Fiqh Laws/Commands in the Al-Quran.    We aren't even talking about whether they are (in reference to the Constitution of the state of Singapore) legally binding or not.


For any one's information here, Muslims community in Singapore, just like their fellow Muslims in Malaysia and the oil state of Brunei are sunnis of the shafie' tradition.   The Islamic Fatwa Council of these 3 countries do meet regularly to streamline their interpretation and corrective action plan to a standard common approach of resolving all religious issues.   In the matter of implementation the timing is left for the Fatwa Council in each state to decide based on their comfort/convenience level.   In Malaysia, for example, pre-marriage classes, even between Muslim pairs, have been initiated and made mandatory.   It is never meant to discourage people but to make sure that any couple is given a maximum opportunity to understand what Islamic marriage is all about which include all the do's and dont's based on the current understanding/interpretation of the Sharia and Fiqh Laws of the Al-Quran/Hadiths.  No exams, just a certificate of attendance.  I do not know whether the Islamic community of Singapore has implemented this corrective action plan, as yet.


Personally, what I see what those persons in the council are doing are just extending and in response to the very message of ALLAHswt's in the Al-Quran that says ALLAHswt's won't punish people until the (message of) the Laws are made known to them thru His Messengers.   To be fair they are taking every heed and hints of ALLAHswt's Guidance in the Al-Quran.


All these measures are just human screening and educating measures to explain what Islamic marriages and/or marriages in Islam are all about for those who believe in ALLAHswt and and His Guidance of the Straight Path for the couplet (soul + mind/spirit) of Man (bani-Adam) and Jinn (bani-Israel) to return to Finally return to Him on their Last Day on earth, in the heavens and in the paradise.  


And as Isasaw (Jesus) once said, in a Gospel,  in ALLAHswt (Ela/Elohim) is both male and female.  And in this phenomenal Universe, when the male is manifested, the female is hidden.  And, when the female is manifested, the male is hidden.  And awaiting for each of us, in a realm above the paradise, is each of our rightful spouse, husband-wife (for bani-Adam) or Parent,  Father-Mother (for bani-Israel).


For those heterosexual - you are closer to the divine, if it has been made to you.   Marriage hasn't been prescribed for you because ALLAHswt's Kingdom is closer to you than your jugular vein, unless you are so carried away by the lowly man and woman of both bani-Adam and bani-Israel.  Be brave enough to choose either a male or female life, perform as-salat, zakat and do all that are goods and you'll among the early birds of the flowing control volume of 70,000 angels queing up at the gate at Sidrat-ul- Muntaha to enter ALLAHswt's Kingdom.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 21, 2012 - 3:25AM #88
Ibn
Posts: 4,232

Mar 20, 2012 -- 7:20PM, Miraj wrote:


Mar 20, 2012 -- 4:30PM, Ibn wrote:


Mar 20, 2012 -- 2:18PM, sallum wrote:

Almumininah = believers. Who and how are they?


1-Believes of the reveal of the holy Qur'an.


Almuminina : 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messenger., and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.


2:285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles…… ……..



The condition, "until they believe", for marriage in the Qur'an 2:221 is not about believing in any revelation in the past but believing in all the revelations from God, including the revelation of the Qur'an, as appropriately declared in the above verses as "His Books" and "His Messengers" or "His apostles". Anyone rejecting "His Book" (the Qur'an) or the Messenger (Muhammad) does not meet the criterion "until they believe" after these verses had been revealed.


The debate here is not about reward for good or bad deeds for followers of the earlier revelations but in which revelation or revelations is one to "believe" to meet the condition "until they believe" in 2:221 before marriage with a Muslima can go ahead.


The Messenger (pbuh) and his Companions knew what it meant by "until they believe", the reason they did not let their daughters get married to Jews or Christians or any other unbeliever (of the Qur'an) after the revelation of 2:221. 


Salaam


Ibn




5:5 tells us what kind of non-Muslims a Muslima can marry: the same kind a Muslim man can marry.



5:5 does not tell you what kind of non-Muslim a Muslima can marry; you are making it up from yourself. This is why Allah never chose a woman messenger to deliver His Message. Allah knew what would happen to a verse like 5:5 because of her rebellion.

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 21, 2012 - 3:41AM #89
Miraj
Posts: 5,023

Mar 21, 2012 -- 3:25AM, Ibn wrote:


Mar 20, 2012 -- 7:20PM, Miraj wrote:


5:5 tells us what kind of non-Muslims a Muslima can marry: the same kind a Muslim man can marry.



5:5 does not tell you what kind of non-Muslim a Muslima can marry; you are making it up from yourself. This is why Allah never chose a woman messenger to deliver His Message. Allah knew what would happen to a verse like 5:5 because of her rebellion.




I'll make dua for you, bro.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Mar 21, 2012 - 10:52AM #90
Ibn
Posts: 4,232

 


الْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ


The Praise is for Allah the Lord of the worlds  

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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