Mar 1, 2012 -- 4:22PM, browbeaten wrote:

Mar 1, 2012 -- 3:53PM, Ibn wrote:

Mar 1, 2012 -- 12:08PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Ibn

Judaism has been and continues to be self updating. the same is true of Islam.

 I suggest that you stick to Judaism rather than sticking your neck out about Islam.  

Islam is complete and already perfected (5:3). It does not require updating.

Ibn, How does Islam deal with new concepts such as human cloning, acquiring stem cells, etc? I'm curious as to where Islamic scholars turn to for interpretation of such matters.

To scientists. If it is a good thing and mankind benefits from such achievements then fine. If it messes up mankind then we may all pay the price eventually. In the meantime, the situation is the same as when atom bomb was being created. Religion is religion (how I should conduct myself) rather than science (which is up to scientists to know how to use it).

Mar 1, 2012 -- 4:22PM, browbeaten wrote:

Mar 1, 2012 -- 3:53PM, Ibn wrote:

Mar 1, 2012 -- 12:08PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Ibn

Judaism has been and continues to be self updating. the same is true of Islam.

 I suggest that you stick to Judaism rather than sticking your neck out about Islam.  

Islam is complete and already perfected (5:3). It does not require updating.

Ibn, How does Islam deal with new concepts such as human cloning, acquiring stem cells, etc? I'm curious as to where Islamic scholars turn to for interpretation of such matters.

The first law of fiqh is that what has not been expressly forbidden is a blessing to humankind.

Mar 1, 2012 -- 3:53PM, Ibn wrote:

Mar 1, 2012 -- 12:08PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Ibn

Judaism has been and continues to be self updating. the same is true of Islam.

 I suggest that you stick to Judaism rather than sticking your neck out about Islam.  

Islam is complete and already perfected (5:3). It does not require updating.

According to the Qur'án, both the "Book of Moses" and the revelation given to Muhammad were "perfect". It is true that the verse 5:4 says "This day have I perfected [atmamtu] my religion for you". But in other verses the same Arabic word is used to indicate that the religions of Moses, Abraham and Jacob were also perfect.

"Then We gave Moses the Book, complete [tamam] for him who does good." (6:155)

"So will thy Lord choose thee [Joseph], and teach thee the interpretation of tales, and perfect [yutimmu] His blessing upon thee and upon the House of Jacob, as He perfected it formerly on thy fathers Abraham and Isaac." (12:6)

It would therefore appear that according to the Qur'án each revelation is perfect for its own age. "Tamam" is an attribute shared by all the revelations. It would be illogical to conclude based on 5:3 that "tamam" implies finality. Then it should have implied finality also in the Qur'án's reference to the completeness of the Book of Moses for every good-doer, and the perfection of the blessings given to Jacob and Abraham. No good-doer would need the Qur'án since the Book of Moses is perfect for good-doers. Nobody in the House of Jacob (in other words all present-day Jews tracing their ancestry to Jacob) would need any further blessings after God blessed the House of Jacob, since the blessings were already perfected for the House of Jacob and Abraham. The blessing that the Qur'án represents would not add an iota to the earlier blessings since the earlier blessings were already perfect. And in that case Rocket would be entirely correct to claim that the Sinaitic Covenant is complete, no further revelation is needed.

Kind regards,

LilWabbit

Mar 1, 2012 -- 5:00PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Mar 1, 2012 -- 4:22PM, browbeaten wrote:

Mar 1, 2012 -- 3:53PM, Ibn wrote:

Mar 1, 2012 -- 12:08PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Ibn

Judaism has been and continues to be self updating. the same is true of Islam.

 I suggest that you stick to Judaism rather than sticking your neck out about Islam.  

Islam is complete and already perfected (5:3). It does not require updating.

Ibn, How does Islam deal with new concepts such as human cloning, acquiring stem cells, etc? I'm curious as to where Islamic scholars turn to for interpretation of such matters.

Brow

Ibn's position is not consistent with the reality of how the Sharia legal system works. If there were no need for interpretation and adjustment, there would be no Sharia law. It may be reassuring to believe that everything is as it has always been, but it is not factual.

rocketjsquirell,

If your G-d tells you that everyone who commits adultery should be killed and you update Judaism (Law of Moses) after the captivity to "bless the adulterers" because sticking to the Law would mean killing everyone then you have killed Judaism and saved the adulterers. You simply can't update your religion or the Law like that.

Mar 2, 2012 -- 9:17AM, Ibn wrote:

Mar 1, 2012 -- 3:53PM, Ibn wrote:

Mar 1, 2012 -- 12:08PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

Ibn

Judaism has been and continues to be self updating. the same is true of Islam.

 I suggest that you stick to Judaism rather than sticking your neck out about Islam.  

Islam is complete and already perfected (5:3). It does not require updating.

Mar 2, 2012 -- 2:13AM, Lilwabbit wrote:

According to the Qur'án, both the "Book of Moses" and the revelation given to Muhammad were "perfect". It is true that the verse 5:4 says "This day have I perfected [atmamtu] my religion for you". But in other verses the same Arabic word is used to indicate that the religions of Moses, Abraham and Jacob were also perfect.

"Then We gave Moses the Book, complete [tamam] for him who does good." (6:155)

"So will thy Lord choose thee [Joseph], and teach thee the interpretation of tales, and perfect [yutimmu] His blessing upon thee and upon the House of Jacob, as He perfected it formerly on thy fathers Abraham and Isaac." (12:6)

Dear Lilwabbit,

It is not the same word in Arabic. The translation of 5:3 and 6:155 is correct but not of 12:6. There is no "perfect" in 12:6 or in 6:155 but only "complete" and "completed" (for blessing/favour) the same way as blessing/favour has been completed on believers.

Dear Ibn,

Kamal (perfection) and tamam (completion) are related words in Arabic. So are the words "completing" and "perfecting" in English. Both can be understood, within the context of the given verses, as meaning that something has reached a supreme degree and therefore need not be further "improved" or "updated". But in both cases (akmaltu, atmamtu, perfecting, completing) it would be an erroneous interpretation due to the reasons given in my previous post. In fact, "atmamtu" can be considered to be an even clearer assertion of finality than "akmaltu".

The point of my previous post remains essentially unchallenged. There's no logical reason to interpret neither "completing" nor "perfecting" as implying finality, except for personal apprehensions against the idea that there be something more than the Qur'án left for God to reveal. Such apprehensions however are not warranted by the Qur'án itself and have in fact arisen many centuries after the Qur'án. I'm willing to debate all such verses you have to offer in another thread dedicated to the "finality" of God's revelation through the Qur'án.

But in short, if we interpret these terms to imply finality in one verse, then they should imply finality in other similar usages of the term (or similar terms) as well. One such usage is in 6:155 which would imply that the Book given to Moses is complete for all good-doers. Nothing more is needed for those who wish to be good-doers. Qur'án would be unnecessary too. The way many "mainstream" Muslims read into 5:3 (due to the historical influence of clergy) is very similar to the way many Christians read into John 14:6 (due to the historical influence of the clergy). There's nothing more than Christ. There's nothing further than the Qur'án.

Kind regards,

LilWabbit