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Switch to Forum Live View What's the point in believing in God?
1 year ago  ::  Feb 17, 2012 - 9:03AM #291
Kodiacman
Kodiacman
Posts: 2,395

Feb 16, 2012 -- 6:49PM, Blü wrote:


Kodiacman


Should this god or gods remove from mankind thier free-will choice to choose to right or to do wrong and simply make each created person subject to its own desires?


Don't be silly.  What free choice does a child born with HIV have?  A child sold into prostitution by its parents?  A child with no parents?  No more free choice than a child killed in a famine, flood, mudslide, tsunami, hurricane, eruption, disease &c.





Blu,


Bad things are going to happen whether or not we subsribe to a specific belief in God or not..in other words bad things are going to happen in a theistic world and bad things are going to happen in a non-thiestic world. This is the reality that each of us must come to accept.


How we choose to interpret these bad things and how we choose to ascribe blame (assuming that there is reasonable cause to blame someone or to something) is an altogether different argument/exercise; for we may find that there is no good reasonable explanation for some things that we observe.


If one chooses to beleive in a God or in God's they do so freely and volitionally. Likewise if a person chooses to disbeleive in a God or in God's they also do so freely and volitionally. These are individual choices that may or may not be related to the bad things that occur in this world that we live in and it is my contention that we would be wise to understand them as such.


It is my contention that it is poor thinking and reasoning to conflate the two exercises. I confess that I am not wholly free from such practices myself for I like to have reasons for why I believe in what I believe. I find that when I have made my belief dependent upon reasons I begin to embody a harsher tone in my dialogue and my thinking becomes more brittle and less flexible... am I right in how I see this issue?!?! I may be totally wrong here too. Still this seems to be reasonable enough to me to make it onto this post....


blessings,


kodiacman

If someone wants to doubt the existence of Jesus, my experience is that no evidence or argument will change his mind. Such is the nature of skepticism.~Editor fourth R
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 17, 2012 - 9:17AM #292
F1fan
F1fan
Posts: 9,275

Feb 17, 2012 -- 12:36AM, Kodiacman wrote:


Feb 16, 2012 -- 4:40PM, Crowhed wrote:


Feb 16, 2012 -- 10:33AM, Kodiacman wrote:


I do not see that I can force "righteousness" upon my child any more than I can see that any god or gods can force us to do the same thing. The way I see it bad behaviors and the ills of society are side effects of free choice whenever people volitionally choose to be self-serving and selfish. 




Really? How is a child's death by malaria an issue of righteousness?





Crowhed,


Context, context, context, the answer is rarely found in just a plain one size fits all answer....


I do admit that I may have opened the door for this line of questioning by being too broad in my statement that may have implied that all bad things are the result of self-serving persons exercising thier free will choices. I will further modify the statement by saying that the ills of society are often the result of selfish persons exercising thier free wills to the detriment of the whole society.


Hopefully this addresses the challenge at hand.


blessings,


Kodiacman


 




Genetic diseases are not the result of selfish people, it happens in nature.  So explain how your god allows this in nature when a child is born with a deadly genetic disease and it represents how parents treat their children.  Give us the context in how it works.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 17, 2012 - 9:24AM #293
F1fan
F1fan
Posts: 9,275

Feb 17, 2012 -- 9:03AM, Kodiacman wrote:

If one chooses to beleive in a God or in God's they do so freely and volitionally. Likewise if a person chooses to disbeleive in a God or in God's they also do so freely and volitionally. These are individual choices that may or may not be related to the bad things that occur in this world that we live in and it is my contention that we would be wise to understand them as such.



We are not talking about whether people believe in a god or not, rather how your contention is that a god exists and it cares for human beings.  It seems to me that reality is as it is and you acknowledge it when bad things happen, yet you ignore these in regards to your idea that a loving god exists.  You have no answer to why bad things happens as a loving god watches and does nothing.


I'd be impressed if children never died from natural illnesses as that would imply that maybe some power is watching over them.  we don't see this, we see humans fighting hard to prevent child deaths, not any god.  If we look at deaths rates of children thought the ages we can conclude that god is quite indifferent, or even hostile, towards them.  It has been medicine and science that has saved the lives of children, not a god.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 17, 2012 - 9:35AM #294
Blü
Blü
Posts: 21,153

Kodiacman


Bad things are going to happen whether or not we subsribe to a specific belief in God or not..in other words bad things are going to happen in a theistic world and bad things are going to happen in a non-thiestic world.


Now we're getting to the nub.  The world behaves exactly as an atheist would expect, and not at all as the claims of theists would lead one to expect.  And freewill doesn't relevantly come into it.


how we choose to ascribe blame


Atheists do without blame in such cases.  They just try to make things better.

Theists, on the other hand, bend over backwards not to blame god.  Yet death by eg tsunami can only be god's fault.  Moreover the OT is full of examples of Yahweh's homicides and genocides, his orders for the slaughter of men, women and children, mass rape. human sacrifice, slavery and so on and so on.

Why don't theists think such things are as morally repulsive as atheists think they are?
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 17, 2012 - 11:02AM #295
mountain_man
mountain_man
Posts: 34,170

Feb 17, 2012 -- 1:37AM, steven_guy wrote:

So God is either impotent or apathetic or a sadist?


Or non existent. What we see are people behaving exactly the way they would in a universe with no god.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 17, 2012 - 11:04AM #296
mountain_man
mountain_man
Posts: 34,170

Feb 17, 2012 -- 9:03AM, Kodiacman wrote:

Bad things are going to happen whether or not we subsribe to a specific belief in God or not..in other words bad things are going to happen in a theistic world and bad things are going to happen in a non-thiestic world. This is the reality that each of us must come to accept.


Then why bother with the god idea at all?

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 17, 2012 - 11:09AM #297
JCarlin
JCarlin
Posts: 4,796

Feb 17, 2012 -- 12:36AM, Kodiacman wrote:

I will further modify the statement by saying that the ills of society are often the result of selfish persons exercising thier free wills to the detriment of the whole society.


blessings,


Kodiacman


To take on the free will issue directly.  If one believes that God has provided free will to do good or to do evil this is ultimately to reject responsibility for either.  God wants one to be good, but the only reason to be good is to please God.  The alternative is also God's will to see if you love Him enough to please Him.  Maybe you don't but it is not your fault, it is God's fault that you failed the test.  The responsibility arrow still points to God. 


If there is no God, each individual is responsible to herm loved ones and herm society to avoid injury to them.  If hesh causes injury there is no escape, no one to blame but the self.  Society will impose appropiate punishment in the real world and no prayer for forgiveness will work.  The only option is to do what one must to repair the damage done to rebuild trust.  The option is no friends, no family, no social support, in short, Sartre's no exit.  Those with no God are personally aware of this responsiblity which in effect leaves no free will at all.  You do what is right as you have been taught as a child and adult as there is no alternative.  You must live with yourself at the very least.      

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 17, 2012 - 1:48PM #298
steven_guy
steven_guy
Posts: 11,057

Feb 17, 2012 -- 11:02AM, mountain_man wrote:


Feb 17, 2012 -- 1:37AM, steven_guy wrote:

So God is either impotent or apathetic or a sadist?


Or non existent. What we see are people behaving exactly the way they would in a universe with no god.




Non existent, of course. And the world exists in exactly the way one would expect without god.


I want to point out to Kodakman that the Moral Argument for god and arguments that god is necessarily good are flawed.  
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 17, 2012 - 2:04PM #299
Sparky_Spotty
Sparky_Spotty
Posts: 652

Feb 17, 2012 -- 1:48PM, steven_guy wrote:


.....and arguments that god is necessarily good are flawed.  




Best line from the movie 'God on Trial'.



"God is NOT good, he was just on OUR side".



Great movie - wonderful introduction to atheism, apologetics, and faith.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 17, 2012 - 2:13PM #300
steven_guy
steven_guy
Posts: 11,057

Feb 17, 2012 -- 2:04PM, Sparky_Spotty wrote:


Feb 17, 2012 -- 1:48PM, steven_guy wrote:


.....and arguments that god is necessarily good are flawed.  




Best line from the movie 'God on Trial'.



"God is NOT good, he was just on OUR side".



Great movie - wonderful introduction to atheism, apologetics, and faith.




I'll have to look it up. I haven't see that film yet.
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