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Switch to Forum Live View Hajj show seeks to lift veil on key Islamic ritual
2 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 10:09AM #31
visio
Posts: 3,229

Jan 31, 2012 -- 7:44PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Visio


I can not help you with your understanding of a misunderstanding and a false distinction which is not inherent in Islam and which flies in the face of both facts and scripture and with which I strongly disagree as inherently anti-semitic and which does not reflect well on its proponents. 




I have no problem in understanding that what you don't understandand are not facts and your scriptures.   And please don't tell us that to be called a fact it has to be subjected to peer-review by your self-elected cartel board.   The whole world knows about that.


I can help you with the meaning of goyim. Goyim means"the nations", as in the nations which are not Jewish/the children of Israel/Hebrews/Bene Israel/Ivri/Israelites/ or anything else you would like to call the Jewish people. It is a nicer term than the Islamic term infidel or unbeliever as it has no negative connotation whatsoever.




Thank you for trying.   However, what I was expecting was some quotes from your scriptures. 



For some reason, various Goyim believe that Israel and the Jewish people should do what they (the Goyim) would never consider - giving their holiest sites to others. (The fact that the others to whom Israel is being requested give these sites has a history of desecration of the sites and prevention of Jews to access the sites seems to have no effect on the desire of the Goyim for Jews to give up these sites) Since I know that you would never consider giving Mecca and the Kabbah to unbelievers, I assume that you would not insist that Jews turn over sites at least equally as important to Judaism as Mecca and the Kabbah is to Islam to unbelievers.



You know very well that there is another parallel thread where this is discussed and many answers given.  If you are not that happy about many of the explanation, just too bad.


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2 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 10:17AM #32
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,288

Feb 1, 2012 -- 10:09AM, visio wrote:


Jan 31, 2012 -- 7:44PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Visio


I can not help you with your understanding of a misunderstanding and a false distinction which is not inherent in Islam and which flies in the face of both facts and scripture and with which I strongly disagree as inherently anti-semitic and which does not reflect well on its proponents. 




I have no problem in understanding that what you don't understandand are not facts and your scriptures.   And please don't tell us that to be called a fact it has to be subjected to peer-review by your self-elected cartel board.   The whole world knows about that.


I can help you with the meaning of goyim. Goyim means"the nations", as in the nations which are not Jewish/the children of Israel/Hebrews/Bene Israel/Ivri/Israelites/ or anything else you would like to call the Jewish people. It is a nicer term than the Islamic term infidel or unbeliever as it has no negative connotation whatsoever.




Thank you for trying.   However, what I was expecting was some quotes from your scriptures. 



For some reason, various Goyim believe that Israel and the Jewish people should do what they (the Goyim) would never consider - giving their holiest sites to others. (The fact that the others to whom Israel is being requested give these sites has a history of desecration of the sites and prevention of Jews to access the sites seems to have no effect on the desire of the Goyim for Jews to give up these sites) Since I know that you would never consider giving Mecca and the Kabbah to unbelievers, I assume that you would not insist that Jews turn over sites at least equally as important to Judaism as Mecca and the Kabbah is to Islam to unbelievers.



You know very well that there is another parallel thread where this is discussed and many answers given.  If you are not that happy about many of the explanation, just too bad.





Visio


Facts do not change. Your ability to ignore them in favor of a set of beliefs also does not change.  Your hypocrisy on the matter of holy sites is also noted for future reference. 



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2 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 1:44PM #33
BDboy
Posts: 5,159

Jan 31, 2012 -- 4:10PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Ibn and Visio


Remember what you have written when you tell me that Israel should turn over Jerusalem to the goyim. Would you turn Mecca and the Kabbah over to unbelievers? Of course not.   





>>>>>>>> Yet to hear about any noteworthy claim by any non-Muslims over Mecca. Remember once Ann Coulter wanted to bomb Mecca!!


That was all.


Because of our "Collective history" Muslims have roots in Jerusalem(Along with Christians and Jews) . Most reasonable Muslims want to share the city. As I said before (But it's worth repeating), it was Muslims who gave back Jewish people the right  to worship in Jerusalem after Roman's banned Jews from entering the holy city for a very long time. After retaking over the city, Jews were allowed to come back and worship.


According to our scripture, we cannot be unfair to Jews or anyone (Even those who faught us). I just pray leaders of Muslim nations remember it and be fair to all people


(Source: Al Qur'an 5:8).

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 2:46PM #34
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,288

BD


In that case you have over 1400 years of violation of your scriptures and counting. 

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 4:48PM #35
Miraj
Posts: 5,020

Salaam,


Let's get back to the Hajj experience, please.  This thread will not be allowed to become a debate over a political conflict.


Thank you for your cooperation!


miraj in mod mode

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 5:53PM #36
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,288

Miraj


I started the post in order to 1. discuss the Haj experience and 2. see if similar experiences in other religious traditions were respected by the Muslims on this thread and 3. if the Muslims on this thread would accept the rights of non Muslims to their most holy site just as non-Muslims respect the rights of Muslims to their most holy site. The answer I received is 1. that the Haj experience is something quite extraordinary (not an unexpected response) and 2. that similar  experiences in other religious traditions are not particularly respected by the Muslims on this thread and 3. the Muslims on this thread will not respect the rights of non-Muslims to their holiest site as non Muslims respect Muslims rights to their holiest site.


It has been a very informative and productive thread. I did not get the answers I hoped for to the second and third questions, but I did get my questions answered.    


Thank you to all who responded. 

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 6:14PM #37
Miraj
Posts: 5,020

Feb 1, 2012 -- 5:53PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Miraj


I started the post in order to 1. discuss the Haj experience and 2. see if similar experiences in other religious traditions were respected by the Muslims on this thread and 3. if the Muslims on this thread would accept the rights of non Muslims to their most holy site just as non-Muslims respect the rights of Muslims to their most holy site. The answer I received is 1. that the Haj experience is something quite extraordinary (not an unexpected response) and 2. that similar  experiences in other religious traditions are not particularly respected by the Muslims on this thread and 3. the Muslims on this thread will not respect the rights of non-Muslims to their holiest site as non Muslims respect Muslims rights to their holiest site.


It has been a very informative and productive thread. I did not get the answers I hoped for to the second and third questions, but I did get my questions answered.    


Thank you to all who responded. 





Muslims on this board have no vote as to whom is allowed to visit Mecca and Medina.  That determination is exclusive to the Saudi goverment who, as a nation, has the right to admit or deny entry to their country and their cities as they wish.  Not all Muslims are allowed to the Hajj, as they also decide who can attend.  Women, in particular, have several restrictions.  I was turned down for the Hajj when I was married to a Christian who was not allowed to permit me to go.  My father had to go with me twice, my cousin another time.  The restrictions chafe us at times, too, but to blame the Muslim on the street for them is incorrect.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 6:54AM #38
Ibn
Posts: 4,437

Feb 1, 2012 -- 5:53PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Miraj


I started the post in order to 1. discuss the Haj experience and 2. see if similar experiences in other religious traditions were respected by the Muslims on this thread and 3. if the Muslims on this thread would accept the rights of non Muslims to their most holy site just as non-Muslims respect the rights of Muslims to their most holy site. The answer I received is 1. that the Haj experience is something quite extraordinary (not an unexpected response) and 2. that similar  experiences in other religious traditions are not particularly respected by the Muslims on this thread and 3. the Muslims on this thread will not respect the rights of non-Muslims to their holiest site as non Muslims respect Muslims rights to their holiest site.


It has been a very informative and productive thread. I did not get the answers I hoped for to the second and third questions, but I did get my questions answered.    


Thank you to all who responded. 



I had made it clear that I respect the right of Jewish people to go for their "Haj" and pray facing the wall where they do it now. No Muslim will take that right of theirs away from them. 


I have no doubt that if rocketjsquirell was given choice to replace Islamic holy sites in Jerusalem with Jewish holy sites, he would not respect and keep Islamic holy sites. Denying it would be plain dishonesty. 

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 8:48AM #39
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,288

Feb 2, 2012 -- 6:54AM, Ibn wrote:


Feb 1, 2012 -- 5:53PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Miraj


I started the post in order to 1. discuss the Haj experience and 2. see if similar experiences in other religious traditions were respected by the Muslims on this thread and 3. if the Muslims on this thread would accept the rights of non Muslims to their most holy site just as non-Muslims respect the rights of Muslims to their most holy site. The answer I received is 1. that the Haj experience is something quite extraordinary (not an unexpected response) and 2. that similar  experiences in other religious traditions are not particularly respected by the Muslims on this thread and 3. the Muslims on this thread will not respect the rights of non-Muslims to their holiest site as non Muslims respect Muslims rights to their holiest site.


It has been a very informative and productive thread. I did not get the answers I hoped for to the second and third questions, but I did get my questions answered.    


Thank you to all who responded. 



I had made it clear that I respect the right of Jewish people to go for their "Haj" and pray facing the wall where they do it now. No Muslim will take that right of theirs away from them. 


I have no doubt that if rocketjsquirell was given choice to replace Islamic holy sites in Jerusalem with Jewish holy sites, he would not respect and keep Islamic holy sites. Denying it would be plain dishonesty. 




Ibn 


You out and out lied twice.


1. During the period of Jordan's illegal occupation of Jerusalem, Judea and Sammaria, Jews were prohibited from entering the territory, they were barred from the Kotel, Hebron, etc... So yes, Muslims have in the past and will in the future take the right of Jews to go for their "Haj" There is a long history of them having done just that.


2. I have stated repeatedly that although the Muslims desecrated the Temple Mount by placing their triumphal Mosques atop it, I do not advocate the removal of them, and neither does anyone else as far as I can tell. Nor do I advocate barring Muslims from the tomb of the Patriarchs, Rachels' tomb or any other "shared" site. 


There is a lot of disrespect on this forum. It is found in the disrespect for Jews and Christians and Jewish and Christian traditions by some of the Muslim posters. It is found in the denial of the existence of the Jewish people, it is found in the denial of facts in favor of doctrine, it is found in the assertion that Jews and Christians somehow got it wrong, it is found in the  purposeful belittling of non-Muslim traditions, it is found in . . .


Thank you for your explanation of the Haj and the Haj experience. I regret that you are unable to appreciate or value the experiences of others.  

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 10:08AM #40
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492

Feb 1, 2012 -- 5:15AM, Ibn wrote:


Jan 31, 2012 -- 4:10PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Ibn and Visio


Remember what you have written when you tell me that Israel should turn over Jerusalem to the goyim. Would you turn Mecca and the Kabbah over to unbelievers? Of course not.   



As usual, you keep misunderstanding what you are reading here.That is how you have misunderstood both the Torah and the Qur'an too.


You are the first one to write about "goyim" here. You are still stuck in your tribal (goyim) mentality. The twelve tribes of Israel are regarded as "goyim". Here is the proof from the Qur'an:


[7.160] And We divided them into twelve tribes, as nations; and We revealed to Moses when his people asked him for water: Strike the rock with your staff, so out flowed from it twelve springs; each tribe knew its drinking place; and We made the clouds to give shade over them and We sent to them manna and quails: Eat of the good things We have given you. And they did not do Us any harm, but they did injustice to their own souls.





Ibn,


"But they did injustice to their own souls."


And it is still going on in Palestine today.


How is that for seeing Truth in our Scriptures?


And the problem is the exclusivity of tribalism, that cannot look beyond self and my tribe, and cannot see every person as special to God.


Sherri

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