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Switch to Forum Live View Faith vs scientific evidence.
3 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2012 - 9:00AM #31
Kwinters
Posts: 21,845

Jan 20, 2012 -- 6:32PM, JimRigas wrote:


So in the end there is no difference.  As far as I am concerned, no matter what I decide to believe I base it on faith. 





If I show you two rocks and them put them on a scale and one is heavier than the other, does it require faith to accept one is heavier than the other, or are you convinced by the evidence?


Conclusions from evidence are not faith.  They are evidence-based conclusions.


Thinking that a man magically walked on water, with no evidence other that the desire for it to be true, is faith.  Thinking that a woman sprung from a man's forehead and became the goddess of wisdom is likewise a statement of faith.


Now do you see how faith and evidence-based conclusions (that is to say, science) are different?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2012 - 9:04AM #32
Kwinters
Posts: 21,845

Jan 21, 2012 -- 1:01PM, JimRigas wrote:


Blu:


I am aware of all this information you have quoted.  What I am trying to point out to you and to the rest of the "scientific" people here, is that you are asking me to accept their accuracy/truthfullness because somebody wrote them down in a book and many others agreed.




Again this is simply not true.  Look I don't see you doubting the accuracy of MEDICAL practices, which are based on the EXACT same process.


Do you know how knowledge is produced by the scientific method and what criteria data and findings have to meet in order to be disseminated to other experts?


10 - The Scientific Method Made Easy

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2012 - 9:10AM #33
Kwinters
Posts: 21,845

Jan 21, 2012 -- 9:22PM, REteach wrote:


Actually, Jim has a point.


Observing something can alter it.  That is something known from physics.





But that happens on the subatomic level.  Looking at a star doesn't change it. :)

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2012 - 9:11AM #34
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

Jan 28, 2012 -- 9:00AM, Kwinters wrote:


If I show you two rocks and them put them on a scale and one is heavier than the other, does it require faith to accept one is heavier than the other, or are you convinced by the evidence?


Conclusions from evidence are not faith.  They are evidence-based conclusions.


Now do you see how faith and evidence-based conclusions (that is to say, science) are different?





But if you show me a balance scale with the two rocks in place I need to have faith that the balance is properly and honestly designed and built and does not contain any features that might tend to favor one of the two sides.  One could easily design a balance that as soon as weights are placed on it it would favor one of the two sides. 


Glad ro see you on board and congratulations for the diploma. assuming it is new.  Now could you please read the thread describing the experiment on algae changing themeselves so that they can assiimilate new types of food sources, and explain to me what is being said and what is being concluded?  Thank you.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2012 - 10:01AM #35
Kwinters
Posts: 21,845

Jan 28, 2012 -- 9:11AM, JimRigas wrote:


Jan 28, 2012 -- 9:00AM, Kwinters wrote:


If I show you two rocks and them put them on a scale and one is heavier than the other, does it require faith to accept one is heavier than the other, or are you convinced by the evidence?


Conclusions from evidence are not faith.  They are evidence-based conclusions.


Now do you see how faith and evidence-based conclusions (that is to say, science) are different?





But if you show me a balance scale with the two rocks in place I need to have faith that the balance is properly and honestly designed and built and does not contain any features that might tend to favor one of the two sides.  One could easily design a balance that as soon as weights are placed on it it would favor one of the two sides. 





You can CHECK the scales.  That is one of the key elements of the scientific method: replication.


If I can't take those two stones and produce the same results as with my scales as you can with yours then we have to be able to identify why the results are different.


So the answer is, you DON'T need to have faith that the scale is balance because you can investigate the method of measurement.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2012 - 10:03AM #36
Kwinters
Posts: 21,845

Jan 28, 2012 -- 9:11AM, JimRigas wrote:


Glad ro see you on board and congratulations for the diploma. assuming it is new.  Now could you please read the thread describing the experiment on algae changing themeselves so that they can assiimilate new types of food sources, and explain to me what is being said and what is being concluded?  Thank you.





Unfortunately I am snowed under at work - I can only come here and post when I need to take a break from writing a research proposal.


I simply don't have time to read and summarize the article for you.

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2012 - 12:50PM #37
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

Unfortunately, science being what it is nowadays, I cannot take either the scale or the stones home and examine them.  Scientists tell us that they have built these multimillion $ equipment and have run some very sensitive tests, recorded some results with some other sensitive instruments, which proved to them something or other from which they drew certain conclusions, which they then explain.  I have to accept on faith ALL of the above.  And my faith is going to be based on the proposition that they would have no reason to lie to me.  Until I remember that they get to gain a great deal of fame from their discoveries. 

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2012 - 1:53PM #38
teilhard
Posts: 50,686

So ...


You're NOT going to do all The Experiments necessary to confirm the published measured Velocity of Light in a Vacuum ... ???  You're NOT going to check and double-check The Accuracy of Dmitiri Mendeleev's Periodic Table of The Elements ... ??? You're just going to take somebody ELSE'S Word for it ... ???


huh ...


Jan 28, 2012 -- 12:50PM, JimRigas wrote:


Unfortunately, science being what it is nowadays, I cannot take either the scale or the stones home and examine them.  Scientists tell us that they have built these multimillion $ equipment and have run some very sensitive tests, recorded some results with some other sensitive instruments, which proved to them something or other from which they drew certain conclusions, which they then explain.  I have to accept on faith ALL of the above.  And my faith is going to be based on the proposition that they would have no reason to lie to me.  Until I remember that they get to gain a great deal of fame from their discoveries. 





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3 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2012 - 3:25PM #39
JimRigas
Posts: 2,950

The way you accuse me of these things makes me so ashamed of myself!   I am so neglectful!

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