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Switch to Forum Live View miracles and hallucinations
3 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 7:19PM #1
koala972
Posts: 866
well i was off working on learning about miracles some more when someone took me aside and reminded me of the 'you are hallucinating' shtick.   Well ok maybe I am and maybe I'm not, but...

My first question is why are people so mean as to poke me all day long by telling me over and over that nothing I do has any validation and so I'm a horrible person and yadda yadda yadda?

My second question is how to tell if I am hallucinating?  Other people are no help because they just say the words 'but everyone knows that is hallucinatory behavior' which isn't evidence for anything when dealing with the unknown at all but sure makes a good argument nonetheless...  so in learning about something that is largely unknown, how does one tell if one is going off the deep end or just processing new info when one can't rely on others to tell them?

My third question is why should I not prefer being ridiculed and called hallucinatory?  At first glance it doesn't sound very nice and you are right maybe it isn't, but it would seem to beat the even worse behavior I see coming if I somehow turn out to be right and am steadfastly stupid enough to try to share what I've seen...

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 8:01AM #2
ozero
Posts: 1,411

Koala: "My first question is why are people so mean as to poke me all day long by telling me over and over that nothing I do has any validation and so I'm a horrible person and yadda yadda yadda?"


My first answer is why do you hang around people like that?  Or is it the case that these people are only nicely telling you that you need validation for others to take you seriously and are not "poking" you at all.  Are you overreacting?  Do you think you are above correction?

"My second question is how to tell if I am hallucinating?  Other people are no help..."


But "other people" are the best source of information on whether or not someone is hallucinating.  This isn't absolute confirmation that what you see and hear is not really there, but if 99 of 100 people say that X is real and you say that you see/hear Y, then you are probably (not definitely) wrong.  If you're belligerent, then you will reject them in favor of your own perceptions.  But that indicates a problem with you, not with them.


My third question is why should I not prefer being ridiculed and called hallucinatory?  At first glance it doesn't sound very nice and you are right maybe it isn't, but it would seem to beat the even worse behavior I see coming if I somehow turn out to be right and am steadfastly stupid enough to try to share what I've seen...

It all depends on how you "try to share".  If you try gentle persuasion over belligerent demands, you might find you can engage in constructive discussion.  If you don't have what other people consider real evidence, then you don't really have a basis for your demands.  You might turn out to be right, but, even then, that proof won't come from you if you don't try to understand what is going on in your own head and to understand what other people are trying to tell you.  If you automatically reject any criticism, then you are "steadfastly stupid".

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 6:18PM #3
Blü
Posts: 25,075

Koala


I don't understand your post.


I assume by 'miracle' you mean an event in objective reality deliberately caused by a supernatural being in a manner independent of the rules of physics.  Is that right?


Are you saying that you're investigating reports of miracles? 


Or are you saying you're personally experiencing miracles?

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 8:13PM #4
koala972
Posts: 866

Jan 13, 2012 -- 8:01AM, ozero wrote:


Koala: "My first question is why are people so mean as to poke me all day long by telling me over and over that nothing I do has any validation and so I'm a horrible person and yadda yadda yadda?"


My first answer is why do you hang around people like that?  Or is it the case that these people are only nicely telling you that you need validation for others to take you seriously and are not "poking" you at all.  Are you overreacting?  Do you think you are above correction?


I no longer care if I'm taken seriously...  and I'm not above correction, actually I need it because I'm good at making mistakes.  I just get tired of everyone seeming to want to take potshots at me all the time.  Until very recently I haven't met people who were interested in anything other than that...  it has been a very long run of one bad moment following another...


"My second question is how to tell if I am hallucinating?  Other people are no help..."


But "other people" are the best source of information on whether or not someone is hallucinating.  This isn't absolute confirmation that what you see and hear is not really there, but if 99 of 100 people say that X is real and you say that you see/hear Y, then you are probably (not definitely) wrong.  If you're belligerent, then you will reject them in favor of your own perceptions.  But that indicates a problem with you, not with them.


It is the 1% that interests me...  there seems to be something at least enough to interest me if noone else and how do I balance what seems to be there against the fact that the 99% agree it isn't there at all?  I'm not rejecting the notion I am wrong without further thought, there may actually be nothing there and I am cognizant of that.  I am just wondering why I have to accept the notion that the 99 are right and there is definitely nothing there 'and I'm not allowed to even explore it' without further thought?


My third question is why should I not prefer being ridiculed and called hallucinatory?  At first glance it doesn't sound very nice and you are right maybe it isn't, but it would seem to beat the even worse behavior I see coming if I somehow turn out to be right and am steadfastly stupid enough to try to share what I've seen...



It all depends on how you "try to share".  If you try gentle persuasion over belligerent demands, you might find you can engage in constructive discussion.  If you don't have what other people consider real evidence, then you don't really have a basis for your demands.  You might turn out to be right, but, even then, that proof won't come from you if you don't try to understand what is going on in your own head and to understand what other people are trying to tell you.  If you automatically reject any criticism, then you are "steadfastly stupid".


I don't demand things, but have often been accused of demanding things nonetheless and then treated accordingly.   I don't automatically reject criticism but get tired of criticism being offered on an automatic basis and then I have to deal with the reality of it.  I've listened to what others have told me and have learned many things, only to be told I haven't listened to others at all and haven't learned a thing.  And it goes on and on in that vein...


And to be honest I don't think 'gentle persuasion' is any kinder than 'belligerent demands' the way people go about things.   It is just a more PC way of putting the phrase 'I want you to agree with me'.




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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 10:00PM #5
koala972
Posts: 866

Jan 13, 2012 -- 6:18PM, Blü wrote:


Koala


I don't understand your post.


I assume by 'miracle' you mean an event in objective reality deliberately caused by a supernatural being in a manner independent of the rules of physics.  Is that right?


Are you saying that you're investigating reports of miracles? 


Or are you saying you're personally experiencing miracles?




I never bought the idea that miracles are incongruent with physical reality, although I can readily buy the idea that they might be incongruent with someone's arbitrarily chosen description of physical reality the same way a people who believed in a literally flat earth would have a problem if someone measured its curvature.



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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 10:54PM #6
steven_guy
Posts: 11,751

Jan 13, 2012 -- 10:00PM, koala972 wrote:


I never bought the idea that miracles are incongruent with physical reality, although I can readily buy the idea that they might be incongruent with someone's arbitrarily chosen description of physical reality the same way a people who believed in a literally flat earth would have a problem if someone measured its curvature.




If a miracle is congruent with reality is isn't a miracle anymore, rather it is something merely unexpected.


Turning water into wine or walking on water isn't congruent with physical reality but someone getting over an illness thought to be incurable isn't a miracle, it's merely unexpected.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 11:12PM #7
steven_guy
Posts: 11,751

Jan 12, 2012 -- 7:19PM, koala972 wrote:

well i was off working on learning about miracles some more when someone took me aside and reminded me of the 'you are hallucinating' shtick.


Miracles don't happen. None have ever been independently observed. The are hallucinations. That this bothers you is your problem, not anyone else's.


   Well ok maybe I am and maybe I'm not, but...


Who knows? Since miracles don't happen, you're options are limited.

My first question is why are people so mean as to poke me all day long by telling me over and over that nothing I do has any validation and so I'm a horrible person and yadda yadda yadda?


Firstly, what does "yadda yadda yadda" mean? Secondly, who is "poking" you "all day long"? 

My second question is how to tell if I am hallucinating?


If you are seeing things out the ordinary, you're hallucinating.


  Other people are no help because they just say the words 'but everyone knows that is hallucinatory behavior'


And they're probably right. Just because you don't like that fact that they're right doesn't change anything.


which isn't evidence for anything


Suggesting that extraordinary claims are extraordinary and unworthy of consideration doesn't need any justification or "evidence".


when dealing with the unknown at all but sure makes a good argument nonetheless...  so in learning about something that is largely unknown,


One needs to use the tools of reason and logic - principles like Occam's Razor - to eliminate all the unlikely assumptions and convoluted explanations. 


how does one tell if one is going off the deep end


If something sounds crazy, unlikely, miraculous - too amazing to be real - then it almost certainly is. 


or just processing new info when one can't rely on others to tell them?


Stay with mundane, reasonable and natural explanations and then you'll never go wrong. If some of those mundane, reasonable and natural explanations include the possibility that you were hallucinating or simply honestly mistaken, then you should embrace them first.

My third question is why should I not prefer being ridiculed and called hallucinatory?


It depends upon whether you consider prudence, reason, criticcal thinking, logic and common sense important parts of your armory of intellectual tools or not.


  At first glance it doesn't sound very nice and you are right maybe it isn't, but it would seem to beat the even worse behavior I see coming if I somehow turn out to be right and am steadfastly stupid enough to try to share what I've seen...


I suspect that what you imagine you've seen is of no worth to anyone but yourself and that you actually are having hallucinations, but then, I don't accept extraordinary claims without one hell of a lot of extraordinary evidence to support them.






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3 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 12:02AM #8
Blü
Posts: 25,075

Koala


So what is your definition of 'miracle'?  What are we actually talking about here?

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 12:42AM #9
koala972
Posts: 866

steven guy - thank you for the example, you responses are exactly why I don't want to post any more.  You {or whoever} decides to attack me jsut over a few words that you key off of then sit there and give off your usual spiel by rote {a spiel which by the way I've heard any number of times from any number of people and it does get old} and any more I'm getting the feeling you do it without even understanding what you are saying actually means {IOW I think it is done purely for the thrill of the fight and not for any reason that could otherwise be called rational} and then I'm left feeling horrible for having given you the opening, and if I'm stupid I let you bait me further and you get to have all sorts of glee watching me squirm.  So have a nice day and I'm sure you can find someone who will take your bait because there are a lot of fish in the sea but I'm not personally interested in relating to what you have said thank you.



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3 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 1:34AM #10
steven_guy
Posts: 11,751

Jan 14, 2012 -- 12:42AM, koala972 wrote:


steven guy - thank you for the example, you responses are exactly why I don't want to post any more. 


Ah! You don't like it when people say "prove it", right?


You {or whoever} decides to attack me


Hold on, buster. No one attacked you. We did say, however, that without proper evidence you can't just say anything and expect people to take it seriously. If this offends you, then you'd better get out of the sandpit.


jsut over a few words that you key off of then sit there and give off your usual spiel by rote {a spiel which by the way I've heard any number of times from any number of people and it does get old}


We have to remind people of what their obligations are vis-à-vis evidence because if we don't they will forget.


and any more I'm getting the feeling you do it without even understanding what you are saying actually means


Clearly you don't know what it means to have the burdern of proof.


{IOW I think it is done purely for the thrill of the fight and not for any reason that could otherwise be called rational}


Actually, I would love to have good conversation about some interesting and unusual claims, backed up with evidence and reason. I come here to chat and debate. You seem to think that you can present anything and everyone must take it seriously. Think again.


and then I'm left feeling horrible for having given you the opening,


Maybe your best option would be to examine things rationally and critically for a change? Do this before you whinge about the fact that your opponents are having to do this for you.


and if I'm stupid I let you bait me further


You had a go at those who rationally suggested that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that maybe hallucinations or delusions are hallucinations or delusions.


and you get to have all sorts of glee watching me squirm.


Well, then to avoid this, then don't make wild, unsupported, irrational and incredible claims - claims that seem to the objective observer to be the hallucinations or delusions that you suggested.perdicted that we would think they are (and we do).


  So have a nice day and I'm sure you can find someone who will take your bait


Oi! You're the one that started this thread. Was it only set up to have a petulant whine about the people who don't take you claims seriously?


because there are a lot of fish in the sea


Meaning?


but I'm not personally interested in relating to what you have said thank you.


;-))


I see. So you wanted people to apologise for being rational and prudently skeptical, didn't you? You're a little miserable about the fact that you and others cannot post claims about supernatural experiences and have them taken seriously by everyone.


I put it to you that you vehemently dislike the burden of proof and have a strong dislike for reason and intellectual prudence.





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