Hi,

I am really confused about some aspect of the Baha'i faith.

Who is the Man (Messiah)  The Bab or Bhaiaullah? The name of the faith suggests Bhaiaullah, but I asked someone online and they said the Bab.  What is the relationship between the two.

Also can someone give me a link to a detailed biography of the Bab.

Thanks 

Oct 30, 2011 -- 6:44AM, 4thagold wrote:

Hi,

I am really confused about some aspect of the Baha'i faith.

Who is the Man (Messiah)  The Bab or Bhaiaullah? The name of the faith suggests Bhaiaullah, but I asked someone online and they said the Bab.  What is the relationship between the two.

Also can someone give me a link to a detailed biography of the Bab.

Thanks 

Salaam ~

The Bab and Muhammad descended from Ishmael (Abraham & Hagar); Baha'u'llah and Zoroaster descended from Jokshan (Abraham & Keturah).  Baha'u'llah was also a descendent of the Sassanian kings of Persia.

The Bab, descendant of Fatima, is the founder of the Babi religion.  He is believed by Baha'is to have been the Mahdi/Qa'im, the Twelfth Imam, awaited by both Sunni and Shi'ite.  His mission was to close the prophetic cycle begun by Adam by bringing the explanation of the Quran with His Book, the Bayan, and to proclaim the coming of One "greater than Myself."  Baha'u'llah is the Messenger prophesied in all past Scriptures, and promised by the Bab, Who ushered in the Day of Judgment/Day of Reckoning/The Hour, etc., and is the One whom Baha'is follow.  In Islamic terms he would be viewed as al-Qayyum.

Returning to the Bab...  Within the first four years after His proclamation, the Bab had written the equivalent of 80 books the size of the Qur'an, one-fifth of which had been disseminated before persecution of the Babis led to the loss of a considerable number of them.  Five works are known from before His declaration in 1844, including a commentary on the Qur'an, a treatise on 'right behavior,' a prayer in honor of Muhammad, his daughter Fatima, and the Imams which are called "Tablets of Visitation."  The most important of His writings (and/or better known) was His book of laws, the "Bayan," 20 additional commentaries on the Qur'an, "Seven Proofs" (of His station), and the "Book of Names."

There is no full biography of the Bab to read online of which I'm aware, but you can read "A Traveler's Narrative Written to Illustrate the Episode of The Báb" written by 'Abdu'l-Baha, the son of Baha'u'llah and "Centre of the Covenant" of the Baha'i Faith.

Baha'un Alaikum, wc

Oct 31, 2011 -- 7:26PM, 4thagold wrote:

So the Bab himself never split of shia islam it was Baha'u'llah?

If by "Shí'ah Islam" (or Sunni Islam for that matter) we mean a doctrine which does not accept an independent Message (Book) from God after Muhammad, then both the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh announced something counter to "Shí'ah Islam" and "Sunni Islam". Why would the Báb otherwise be executed by a firing squad of 750 riflemen, and Bahá'u'lláh thrown into the dungeon of Siyáh Chal with a 100-pound chain on his neck. They would have been pardoned the very moment they would relinquish their claims. Bahá'u'lláh was offered the opportunity of recanting, as well as help from foreign governments throughout his life-sentence, both of which he consistently while cordially refused.

However, the Qur'án (the source of what Islam is all about) is explicit that "For each period is a Book (revealed)" / "likulli ajalin kitábun" (013.038). It does not say that "for each period, except for future periods, there is a Book revealed." As to Muhammad being the "Seal of the Prophets" (khátam al-nabíyyin), that's a whole different ball-game.

In brief, the gist of the Bahá'í position is that 'nabi' literally signifies "a prophecy-maker" or "a news-bringer" ("a bringer of tidings"). The 78th surah of the Qur'án, the Surah of An-Naba (news, tidings), refers to the Day of Judgment as the very "news" or "the tidings" intended throughout the Qur'án. All the earlier "prophets" or "news-bringers" (nabiyyin) brought to mankind the same "news" (an-Naba) of a future Day of Judgment and Reckoning, as described in the 78th surah. In other words, "nabi" in the Qur'ánic sense, is one whom God has sent to "warn" and "inform" mankind about the future Day of Judgment.

Since the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh announced the arrival of the Day of Judgment, they couldn't possibly be 'nabiyyin', prophets who prophecize about a future Day of Judgment. Neither did Bahá'u'lláh claim to be "nabí". However, Bahá'u'lláh called all the great bringers of a Book from God as "Manifestations of God" (not literal manifestations but more like manifestations of God's virtues amongst men). Muhammad is regarded by Bahá'ís as a Manifestation of God with a specific Message to be the Seal of the Prophets ("the last news-bringer"). Bahá'u'lláh's was a Manifestation of God with the specific Message of being the Judge on the Day of Judgment, the one to announce that the Day has indeed arrived after millennia of expectation. The one to bring the necessary teachings to forge a global civilization and to remove all sources of conflict. Since the Day is at hand, the time of its prophecy is obviously over. All of them, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh are regarded by Bahá'ís as Manifestations of God. Even Krishna, Zoroaster and Buddha. Each came to confirm certain universal truths as well as to bring a specific Message relevant to human progress in the historical period to which they appeared. Revelation of God is progressive. Not stagnant or one that has a point of cessation. Indeed, the Qur'án appears to confirm this truth.

As regards the symbolism of the cataclysmic events associated with the Day of Judgment, as Bahá'u'lláh says in the Kitáb-i-Iqán (which is basically a tafsir on the apocalyptic prophecies of the Qur'án and the Gospels), if people were to persist in their expectation of literal cleavings of mountains, heavens folded in God's right hand, literal suns darkening, and literal Christs descending upon clouds, they can well keep on waiting until the end that has no end.

This, in short, is the Bahá'í understanding.

Sincerely,

LilWabbit

Howdy Natas and g'morning from across the Atlantic!

Nov 4, 2011 -- 9:47PM, NATAS wrote:

I am still cornfused.  When the Bab and Baha'u'llah were children were they Shia Muslims?

Both were born and raised as Shí'ah Muslims, yes.

Were they Shia Muslims before they became nabi?

They were Shí'ite before declaring to bring a new revelation from God. However, they never used the word "nabi" ("prophet/news-bringer") or "rasul" ("Messenger") of themselves. They spoke about "Manifestations of God" in reference to all those who brought a Book from God, including themselves.

If they were Shia Muslims at what age did they stop being Shia Muslims?

The Báb stopped being Shí'ite at the age of 25 in the year 1844 at the moment he declared his mission to Mullá Husayn. Bahá'u'lláh ceased to be Shí'ite the same year (1844), at the age of 27, the moment he embraced the Message of the Báb which was shared to him by the very same Mullá Husayn at the instruction of the Báb (another interesting story). Moreover, Bahá'u'lláh ceased to be officially a Bábi after his own declaration to be "Him Whom God shall make manifest" (the Báb's prophecy) in the year 1863 in Baghdad.

Did they receeve their...messages from Gabriel like Muhammad?

Both the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh regarded such references symbolic. Bahá'u'lláh spoke of the Maid of Heaven who appeared to him while he was bearing the weight of the chains in the dungeon Siyah Chál. Rejoicing and radiant, Bahá'u'lláh describes, she emblazoned to all the the world His true Identity and Mission, and seized their hearts and minds. Both from Bahá'u'lláh's own description, as well as his later words on the episode, it is clear that this was a highly symbolic description of a powerful personal experience.

You said that the Bab and the Bahuallah were not "prophets"  but yet you say that they were like Adam, Moses and Muhammad who are considered to be prophets.

Of course in the generic sense of the term we regard the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh also as prophets. However, the term has also a very specific meaning in the Qur'án. The label of "prophethood" in the Qur'ánic context was discussed in the above. The term "nabi" ("news-bringer") differs from the Biblical concept of "prophet" slightly since the Qur'án speaks explicitly about the Day of Judgment being the "an-Naba" ("News") being prophesied. The Qur'án also employs another term, "rasul" ("Messenger"), to refer to many of the same "bringers of a Book". However, both the Bible and the Qur'án differ from the Bahá'í usage of the term "prophet". In the Bahá'í context the term "prophet" is often used as a mere synonym for a Manifestation of God. Bahá'ís also talk about the so-called "Lesser Prophets" who did not bring a new Book from God but rather whose mission was to confirm and to further teach a Book already brought by a "Greater Prophet". The example of the Jewish prophets after Moses is often given. For a more scholarly discussion on the Bahá'í understanding of "nabi" and "rasul" in the Qur'ánic context, please refer to this paper

I am a bit skeptical of the claim that the Bab was executed by a firing squad of 750 people.  It seems to be a bit....excessive.  I also have difficulty trying to picture what such a firing squad would look like.

This historical fact is actually chronicled in some detail by both Western and Muslim observers (some of them dignitaries) present at the execution. The volleys were fired in three files of 250 men separately. The size of the infantry regimen (the term "musketry" was used by the British observer) is understandable against the backdrop of the high profile nature of the case of the Báb and the nation-gripping turmoil that his declaration had engendered. They really wanted him dead, and his death confirmed by many observers. Also, in order to avoid an anachronistic interpretation of history, we cannot compare the firing squads used by the State of Utah in the 21st century for criminals (I know you're not drawing such a parallel) to those used by the Kingdom of Persia against a perceived enemy of Islam (and the nation) in the 19th.

A score of unbiased and notable first-hand observers of Qajaric Persia in the 19th century, not the least of which were Lord George Curzon of Kedleston and Arthur de Gobineau, would attest in their numerous accounts to the two decades of turmoil in Persia following the revelation of the Báb.

Here are some very succinct accounts from various sources as to what happened (although some accounts on this website do not, in their brevity, include descriptions of the size of the regimen). More details are found in Nabil's Narrative. All reports, even the hostile ones, acknowledge that there were two consecutive attempts at execution by a firing squad since the first attempt failed without any easy explanation. Actually a "regimen of soldiers" (as the Nabil's Narrative describes) is a more apt description than "firing squad". An Armenian Christian officer by the name of Sam Khán was the officer-in-charge of the execution but refused to undertake the second attempt after the inexplicable failure of the first one.

What the different accounts seem to agree is that the first attempt, by Sam Khán, consisting of three volleys fired by three files of 250 soldiers, actually failed to harm the Báb, and that the Báb was nowhere to be found after the smoke cleared. A second attempt was made which succeeded in riddling the Báb's and Anis's (a youth who wanted to die with the Báb) bodies to a pulp of flesh and bone. According to the most detailed eyewitness accounts (reported by the Bábis and the Báb's amanuensis), after the failure of the first attempt the Báb was discovered from his prison cell giving instructions to his amanuensis which he was interrupted (by the guards) from doing earlier in the day. According to sources hostile to the Bahá'í Faith (Persian authorities), after the first attempt of Sam Khán failed, the Báb ran away into his cell. No accounts, including the British records, offer viable reasons as to why many trained marksmen failed to kill an easy target within short range. While the Bahá'ís regard this episode as a genuine miracle, we do not usually bring up miracles to advance our case, let alone to offer them as proofs.

The Báb was reported to have said before being once more taken by the guards for execution that he has finally finished his mission. His last words, addressing all the observers, were reported as: "O wayward generation! If you had followed the example of this youth [referring to Anis whose face was pressed against his chest within his embrace], who ranks above most of you, you would have willingly sacrificed your lives in My path. However, the day shall come when you will have recognized Me and I have ceased to be with you."

I suspect that the reason that the Bab and the Baha'u'llah were executed was because the Shia Muslim were as confused about the distinction between a prophet and a manifiestation of God as I am. I would also suspect that just the comparision of the Bab and the Baha'u'llah to Muhammad would be considered to be blasphemy and heretical.

Bahá'u'lláh was not executed but died in exile. Overall, your suspicions are not far from the truth. Both claimed in unmistakable terms to bring a new revelation from God after Muhammad (a great no-no in orthodox Islam), and to be equal in stature to Muhammad, Jesus and all the earlier bringers of a Book (another great no-no in orthodox Islam). Both also rapidly attracted a large and devoted following which caused alarm amongst the Orthodox Shí'íte clergy. In fact, the Sháh (Muhammad Sháh) was intent on interviewing the Báb in person after the Sháh's own religious adviser, a renowned philosopher-scholar Siyyid Yahyá, threw himself into the Báb's lot. However, the Sháh was persuaded by the Grand Vizier (Prime Minister) Haji Mírzá Aqasí and the clergy not to invite the Báb to the palace. Some ministers were reported to have feared that the Báb would "bewitch" the Sháh as he had so many other prominent individuals and clergymen in the realm. Siyyid Yahyá was a warning example.

With kind regards,

LilWabbit

Howdy Buddy,

Nov 7, 2011 -- 12:24PM, NATAS wrote:

I also am still confused.  I think it is due to the the linguistic ambiguity being used. It "all depends on what prophet means".  Bahias says it means this, Jews say it means that, Muslims say it means something a little different.   Both Shia and Sunni believe that Muhammad was the last prophet-messenger of God due to their interpretation of the Quran.   Bahias disagree with "the seal of the prophet".  Both Shia and Sunni claim that it is heretical and blasphemous for anyone to claim that they are prophets,wether generically, figuratively, allegorically or in any other way. 

Due to lingustic ambiguity, it all depends on what "prophet" means and the commotion that was a result of the Bahai  it is not at all suprising to me that the authorities reacted as they did.

There was no linguistic confusion for the Shí'ite clergy. Quite simply, the Quranic "Seal of the Prophets" had been interpreted to mean that there simply is no prophet, no messenger, no manifestation of God, no nothing of Muhammad's stature to succeed Muhammad. To claim otherwise would imply a death wish. In sum, while grossly unjust and cruel, it is not at all surprising why the authorities reacted as they did. The surprising thing about the whole episode is rather the courage, adamance and persistence of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh in advancing their claims. 

Both the Bab and the Bahuallah were Shia Muslims and both became apostates from the orthodox Shia Muslim point of view.  Of course it "all depends of what apostate"  means".   I am quite sure that Bahias would disagree with that both the Bab and Bahuallah were apostates.

Why would we disagree? The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh were most certainly apostates from the Orthodox Shí'ite viewpoint, just like Jesus was an apostate Jew for the Jewish Orthodoxy. 

I am still confused about the execution account of the Bab. 

First you said "Why would the Báb otherwise be executed by a firing squad of 750 riflemen, and Bahá'u'lláh thrown into the dungeon of Siyáh Chal with a 50-kilogram chain on his neck.

Then you said

"This historical fact is actually chronicled in some detail by both Western and Muslim observers (some of them dignitaries) present at the execution. The volleys were fired in three files of 250 men separately. "

I suspect that the details, from a "deeper(?)", religious-spiritual perspective is not that important.

In a sense you are right. The facts were merely shared to show that the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh were really treated as enemies of Islam and not just as common criminals.

The "important(?)" story is that there was a "miracle" and that the "Bab" died as a martyr. That this is evidence or proof that the Bab was a...."manifestation of Allah" and this is evidentatry proof of the validity of the Bahai religion.

As I stated earlier quite clearly, this execution "miracle" is not advanced as a proof but rather mentioned as an interesting historical episode which remains inexplicable. Its significance for us is not in the fact that it is a "miracle" but in the spiritual allegory it represents. We as Bahá'ís are not to believe in the Báb because of this episode or other reported miracles, but because what he wrote moves us deeply and rings true as the Word of God. The latter are direct personal experiences, the former remain rumours and reports from a 3rd person. In fact, we are asked not to put much stock in "miracle stories". 'Abdu'l-Bahá (the son of Bahá'u'lláh) says that even if miracles by prophets actually happened (and we believe some did whilst others remain nothing more than legend), they were at best proofs to those who witnessed them. Not to posterity. 

Why didn't the mean ol Iranian-Shias-Muslim orthodox clergy execute Bahaullah the same way the did the Bab I don't know but I suspect that it was all part of Allah's plan.

Actually the Sháh and the ministers expected Bahá'u'lláh to die in the dungeon of Siyah Chál. The Siyah Chál was a former sewage reservoir turned into an underground prison. It was basically a deep underground tunnel (housing some 150 prisoners including 30 Bábis) which had only one outlet. It was so narrow and low that only sitting in a crouching position was possible. Many others died in the prison and much heavier chains were placed on Bahá'u'lláh's shoulders than on the other prisoners. His 100-pound chains even had names: Qará-Guhar and Salásil. The mother of the Sháh in particular was insisting on Bahá'u'lláh's execution. According to some reports the Sháh was worried about more prominent martyrs inciting fresh support to Bábism. Most accounts report that Prince Dolgorukov from the Russian Legation intervened on Bahá'u'lláh's behalf, owing to Bahá'u'lláh's excellent reputation as a man of virtue. Prince Dolgorukov is reported to have told the Persian authorities in no uncertain terms that Bahá'u'lláh is not be harmed or Persia shall hear from Russia. As a consequence, the death sentence was not carried out and the Siyáh Chál sentence was interrupted after 4 months of stay (boy, I make it sound like a motel!). Instead, Bahá'u'lláh was banished from the country and ordered to live under house arrest or imprisonment for the remainder of his life in various parts of the Ottoman Empire, far away from bewitching any more Persians. Prince Dolgorukov offered refuge in Russia which Bahá'u'lláh cordially refused. The British offered refuge when Bahá'u'lláh was in Baghdad and the French offered him assistance whilst he was in Adrianople, which were also politely turned down.

With kind regards,

LilWabbit