“Was this his Everyman’s version of Gnostic doctrine, complete with an evil Demiurge? The divine as inimical to our being here? Admittedly, the evidence he could cull from his experience was not negligible. Only a fiend could invent polio. Only a fiend could invent Horace. Only a fiend could invent World War II. Add it all up and the fiend wins. The fiend is omnipotent." Philip Roth in Nemesis
Is God a fiend? How can one reconcile polio or World War II, the Holocaust, schizophrenia, or the myriad of life's other tortures, with the notion of a just, all-loving, and all-powerful god? I'm not trying to tear down your faith or to harm the security that many of you find in religion. I used to be religious myself (went on a mission too.) My point in writing this is to try to understand how you all live with the idea of suffering and evil, on the one hand, and the notion that God is good and is capable of preventing bad things from happening on the other.
"Only a fiend could invent World War II. Add it all up and the fiend wins. The fiend is omnipotent."
The great adversary is truly a fiend but he is not omnipotent. He can have only the power and type of life that his followers give him.
Our questions and our faith are only answered by personal prayer and study. Asking questions is easy while finding answers and understanding is a lifelong work. What part of a life brings one to that understanding is usually different for each person. Those answers come depending on how much you desire them and how much work you are willing to put into that search. I can attest that as you open your heart and mind one tends to notice many things around us that others miss. Remember that life on the Earth is a test. In School tests are mostly true / false, but real life is all essay questions.
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.- Steve Jobs"
* "The shoe that fits one person pinches another; there is no recipe for living that suits all cases."
Thanks Bill for your detailed response. The Problem of Evil does seem to me to be a devastating blow to anyone who would argue for an all-powerful/loving deity. As you demonstrate, the historical/biblical accounts of the Judeo-Christian deity reveal a god who seems to be capricious and retributive. And, the arguments supporting the conception of god as omnipotent and all-loving/good don't seem to hold water.
To my current way of thinking and to my dismay (though I try not to dwell on it) Philip Roth's character had it right. It seems that if their is design in the universe, the designer is a fiend. Either a fiend, or an apathetic creator who is indifferent to our misery. Of course their is the possibility (many would say probability) that the universe is devoid of design or purpose. In fact, the narrator of the novel that I quote takes this as reality. Clearly, neither way of looking at life fills me with hope. Nevertheless, I do still consider myself spiritual, and I have not given up hope that there is meaning in life and suffering. But frankly, I cannot comprehend what that meaning is.
I would be curious to know how you deal with the problem of Evil. You seem to be a thoughtful individual who has grappled with these issues. You also seem to leave the door open to the possibility of a divine Creator. So, if you don't mind me asking, how do you see things?
“My point in writing this is to try to understand how you all live with the idea of suffering and evil, on the one hand, and the notion that God is good and is capable of preventing bad things from happening on the other.”
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Hmm, what do you mean by "You all"?
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You state that you were a missionary. Now I am wondering what it was that you were teaching if not those basic doctrines which allow for AGENCY as a prime doctrine instead of the other plan that was proposed by the adversary who wants the slavery and worship of all? Or was it a different church? Elder Russell M. Nelson said: “The choice to come unto Christ is not a matter of physical location; it is a matter of individual commitment".
I can tell you how I live with the evil and wickedness here. It is simply to do good. To be active in my Church and community. To help at-risk kids and let them know that people care about them and want them to succeed. To help all kids know that we care about them.
The following is list of some of the things that my Optimist club does throughout the year for kids:
Optimist Youth Home & Family Service Agency, Optimist Foster Family Services Agency, Optimist Satellite Youth Homes (4), 2 for girls and 2 for boys, Optimist fully accredited High School. Optimist Childhood Cancer Campaign, Optimist International Foundation, Optimist Essay Contests, Optimist Youth Appreciation Awards, Optimist Respect for Law Awards program, Optimist Braille Olympics, Scholarship Award Program (10 $1,000), Meet the challenge scholarships (5-$500), Bill Flora athletic scholarship ($1,000), Burbank Parks & Recreation Halloween Program, High school vocal music programs, John Burroughs high school girls basketball Invitational tournament (17 to 20 school teams), Annual Youth Charity Golf tournament, High School Invitational Golf Tournament (20 to 25 Schools & over 100 youth), High School Girl’s invitational Golf Tournament 21 schools involved this year, Tri-Valley Special Olympics, Optimist Special olympics, Burbank YMCA, Salvation Army Red Kettle Drive, Annual Optimist Inter Club Festival of Trees, Burbank Chamber of Commerce, Co-sponsor Annual Burbank Mayor’s prayer Breakfast, and many other things as needed when we find out about them as we work with the Schools and City Council. There are many other organizations that raise funds and help kids and adults everywhere one can look. The above list involves involvement hours, fund raising, Christmas presents, formal and informal dinners for the kids, taking the kids fishing, taking the kids to ball games, Etc. Etc. Etc.
Jesse F.
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(“Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows.”) So no matter what, one can’t hide.
Someone once said that that many evil ones live on to give them a chance to repent while many good people die young so that they may not fall into sin.
MMCSFOX, while I appreciate your earnestness, I don't think that you (along with the vast majority of the religious "faithful") fully comprehend the implications of the Problem of Evil. The so-called agency that you speak of is an illusion that believers use to convince themselves that their god is not a fiend. In fact, if god is omniscient, as Mormon theology clearly teaches, then he is responsible for everything that we do, and we have no actual control over our actions thus negating agency.Think about it.
So Alex, You are not really A Mormon nor been on a mission as you stated as you seem to have no understanding of the LDS faith. You are more like a teenager trying to argue for a path that you would like to pursue as you get older. You seem like many who come here parroting the words of others who follow another path. If you want to learn about Jesus Christ and our Parents in the pre-existence you have to put in the work to learn about all of that. You, of course have Agency to not do that and suffer the consequences of inaction later. I would hope that at least you would try to help others in your community to lesson suffering among those around you. I do hope that you do find peace for yourself.
Jesse F.
* "I cannot believe that the purpose of life is to be happy. I think the purpose of life is to be useful, to be responsible, to be compassionate. It is, above all to matter, to count, to stand for something, to have made some difference that you lived at all."
So FOX, instead of dealing with the arguments I raise you predictably attack my character. If I don't agree with you and your erroneous religion then in your mind it is impossible that I could have been a Mormon missionary at one point. Sadly for your fragile faith, I indeed was a missionary (I completed an "honorable" mission). In fact, I probably know quite a bit more about Mormonism than most active members. I was married in a temple and was quite faithful to the teachings of the church. Unfortunately for Mormonism, thinking and reasoning and having an open mind typically lead the careful student to the conclusion that Mormonism is not what it purports to be. I am such a person and I have searched for truth regardless of where it has lead. And the truth about Mormonism is a far cry from what the "brethren" would have you believe.
Now, I don't claim to know any absolute truth. I am agnostic on god and a skeptic about most things. I am, however, fairly certain, at least to the extent that I am capable of knowing anything, that organized religion in general, and Mormonism specifically has certain destructive elements. One of these is the blind faith that adherents prize. I'm sure you will disagree that you follow your faith blindly, as would most believers. But the fact is that this quality, if it can be called that, is to a greater or lesser extent, a prerequisite to the faithful. Sadly, it leads to a non-critical mind-set that punishes the skeptics among them. This leads to a sort of group-think that permeates the organization which in turn becomes a monolith.
It is not my intention to destroy anybody's security. If you need faith to see you through the hardships that life inevitably presents, then more power to you. I just take offense when you and people like you assume that you have the only truth and that anybody who disagrees is either unrighteous or simpleminded and in need of saving. The truth is that you cannot possibly know what you claim to know. There is nothing epistemologically valid about gaining a "testimony" through prayer and reading the book of Mormon. It would do everyone on this planet a world of good if more people would accept the fact that we are limited in what we can know. Thinking in absolutes is rarely a good thing.
So FOX, instead of dealing with the arguments I raise you predictably attack my character. If I don't agree with you and your erroneous religion then in your mind it is impossible that I could have been a Mormon missionary at one point.
157. If a critic of the church claims to be a former member, watch their words carefully. The louder they protest that they simply lost their faith or were innocent victims of a spiteful leadership, the greater the odds that they were, in fact, ejected for personal misconduct and are praying that no one calls them on it.
LDS Skippy's List
You see, there are a lot of critics of the church who go out of their way to claim that they were former members and had been in good standing at the time they left.
All too often, these critics are lying through their teeth.
Some, like J. Edward Decker or Grant Palmer, actually weren't in good standing; the former was facing excommunication for adultery and the latter had been removed from a paid seminary position for conduct unbecoming.
Others, like Bill Schnobelen, were never even members of the church to begin with.
Because of this, it actually is reasonable for a member of the church to question the status of someone who is a critic of the church - that critic's buddies ruined it for them.
Unfortunately for Mormonism, thinking and reasoning and having an open mind typically lead the careful student to the conclusion that Mormonism is not what it purports to be.
Remember those critics who I said were lying through their teeth?
Each and every last one of them made a similar statement to explain why they supposedly left the church.
So you need to go into some more detail about the hows & whys, or else you've actually weakened your own position.
Now, I don't claim to know any absolute truth. I am agnostic on god and a skeptic about most things. I am, however, fairly certain, at least to the extent that I am capable of knowing anything, that organized religion in general, and Mormonism specifically has certain destructive elements.
You claim that you don't know any absolute truth, and then make an absolute statement about religion.
That's gonna cost you in the points department.
One of these is the blind faith that adherents prize. I'm sure you will disagree that you follow your faith blindly, as would most believers. But the fact is that this quality, if it can be called that, is to a greater or lesser extent, a prerequisite to the faithful. Sadly, it leads to a non-critical mind-set that punishes the skeptics among them. This leads to a sort of group-think that permeates the organization which in turn becomes a monolith.
You do realize that you're talking to someone who has more anti-Mormon material in his personal possession than some ministers, right?
What I do is read it and point out - for the whole world to see - how the work is wrong and why.
Ironhold, the only thing that you're pointing out is your incredible ignorance. I notice that not once did any of you who are practicing Mormons even attempt to address my original post pertaining to the Problem of Evil. The fact is that you can't deal with it. It's an issue that has confronted believers for a lot longer than Mormonism has been around. You can sidestep it by making personal attacks on what you perceive to be my unworthiness. That doesn't solve the conundrum for you or any other Mormon.
