Sep 21, 2011 -- 9:26PM, Esdraelon wrote:

 

What do you actually know of what Jesus would have expected? Let me ask you something....given the arguments all over this forum right now, why did Jesus not call upon Caesar or Pontius Pilate to start a social program for the 'needy' of the time since Rome was basically the 'government'?

The fact of the matter is that Jesus never once stated, nor insinuated, that the government was to put people up in free housing and food banks. He always focused on the individual.

And if anyone wants to take Jesus' commands regarding individual giving and apply it to the government programs, then they must also include the poor widow who gave out of her poverty… of whom Jesus esteemed.  "All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on." (Luke 21)

Compare that kind of giving to who doesn't pay federal income tax, and to whom Obama is demanding pay more taxes.    What happened to kind of "giving" that Jesus wants?   He wants the poor to give, too.   What percentage did she give?  Should we apply this story to set the mark for tax rates? 

Therefore, those who want people to apply the teachings of Jesus regarding  the paying of taxes… MUST preach that the poor should give out of their poverty federal income tax, and that Obama should be demanding the poor pay more in taxes to help stimulate the economy.

And of course, they don't.   Why?  Because their applications are not Biblical.  It's just a ruse.

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"Oh, no.   You can't use that story to talk about tax policy.   That woman was an individual who chose to give all she had.   That's not a mandate for government and the taking of taxes.  If you want to give all you have, that's your choice.   But you shouldn't take that story about an individual, and stretch it apply to taxes.   Oh, but the other stories about individuals giving to help others, um, well, you can use those to support more taxation.  Just don't use the story of the poor giving.  Ok?" 

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I respect the fact that Obama doesn't trot out the teachings of Jesus to gather support for increasing taxes.  Apparently he doesn't consult with the Bnet "Jesus wants us to tax more" crowd.

So many replies, not enough time to respond to them all.....

You so called christians are still living within the time period Jesus did. You fail to take into account the way life was in that time period. You assume society today is a exact representation of what life was like 2000 years ago. Are all christians retarded? Or just the ones defending on this board?

You Christians might want to investigate the dicotomy of the (socialist) realm of Rome and thier control/allowance/coexistence with the Isrealites....esp when it came to health care.

Then you can research the dicotomy of the Isrealites within Roman rule, very much a socialist society IMO.

Fast forward to the 21 century and neither exist, yet christians still hold on to one society and have totally rejected the other aspect of society in the realm in which Jesus lived.

So if you want to pick and choose which aspects of allowance you choose to follow, then why not allow fathers to sell their daughters to other rich men, own slaves, stone children to death, etc. Jesus was a Isrealite, yet he never spoke out against these things, but somewhere he spoke against giving unto Ceasar what is Ceasars; somewhere where jesus taught the poor amongst you must die so the rich among you may become richer, and lastly where Jesus taught those who are incapable of contributing financialy to society must be done away with so the well to do are not burdend by these lazy people?

Sep 21, 2011 -- 11:00PM, Iwantamotto wrote:

Esdraelon:  The fact of the matter is that Jesus never once stated, nor insinuated, that the government was to put people up in free housing and food banks. He always focused on the individual.

Perhaps it's because He only had the opportunity to talk to individuals, since for the most part the Roman leadership considered everyone there just some hicks in the sticks, so to speak.

jonny42:  Compare that kind of giving to who doesn't pay federal income tax, and to whom Obama is demanding pay more taxes.    What happened to kind of "giving" that Jesus wants?   He wants the poor to give, too.   What percentage did she give?  Should we apply this story to set the mark for tax rates?

The story is very emotionally touching, but if you had a town of 100 poor people who make only 500 bucks a month, you'll NEVER get the kind of money the millionaire is making.  It's basic math.  Tax the poor all you like.  They're POOR.  You will get nothing but pocket change and lint out of them while all the people with the actual money get to swim in little money pools.

*exaggeration to denote a less-than-completely-serious-tone*

Really? Then why is everyone suggesting that they know exactly what Jesus insinuated? Don't you think He could have MADE the opportunity???

Didn't Moses MAKE the opportunity with Pharaoh?

Sep 21, 2011 -- 9:26PM, Esdraelon wrote:

Sep 21, 2011 -- 9:14PM, koolpoi wrote:

Sep 21, 2011 -- 5:44PM, davelaw40 wrote:

Sep 21, 2011 -- 9:31AM, koolpoi wrote:

Sep 20, 2011 -- 11:52PM, davelaw40 wrote:

Sep 20, 2011 -- 10:37PM, matica wrote:

Should non productive american citizens be forced to die so we do not have to take care of them?

Was there a health care insurance system when Jesus healed?

Should profits and shareholder dividends have precident over life?

Did Jesus teach financial profits were more important than healing?

scripture says everyone should care for their own relatives

anyone that refuses to care for their own is worse than an infidel

But what if the relatives are unable to help or if there are no relatives?Are we our brothers' and sisters' keepers in those cases?I recently saw a video clip from a Republican presidential candidate debate in which many in the audience seemed to favor letting a sick individual die because he didn't have health insurance.I understand that this is the US system but I was surprised at the unabashed pride the audience members seemed to take in allowing someone to die because he lacked money or insurance,especially since the US is the most Christian country in the developed world.I cannot imagine Jesus approving of that audience's attitude.How do you think He would have reacted had He been there?

then the local community steps in

Jesus would have lambasted them as individuals but not expected a government to step in

So how could so many church-going people be so wrong while a more secular European crowd would have been more likely to react as Jesus would have expected?

What do you actually know of what Jesus would have expected? Let me ask you something....given the arguments all over this forum right now, why did Jesus not call upon Caesar or Pontius Pilate to start a social program for the 'needy' of the time since Rome was basically the 'government'?

The fact of the matter is that Jesus never once stated, nor insinuated, that the government was to put people up in free housing and food banks. He always focused on the individual.

Imperial occupying powers like Rome did not concern themselves with social programs for those they dominated.But consider the communal nature of early Christian communities.When Christians could shape how they lived together,they shared possessions and helped each other without being concerned about payment, presumably because they felt this was what Jesus would have wanted.I would think they were more in touch with what Jesus actually said and did than later Christians who felt the need to make their beliefs fit in with Rome once they were part of the establishment rather than outsiders.It is the spirit of those early communities that could furnish a good example for modern democracies wishing to build on Jesus' teachings.

Sep 21, 2011 -- 11:00PM, Iwantamotto wrote:

 

jonny42:  Compare that kind of giving to who doesn't pay federal income tax, and to whom Obama is demanding pay more taxes.    What happened to kind of "giving" that Jesus wants?   He wants the poor to give, too.   What percentage did she give?  Should we apply this story to set the mark for tax rates?

The story is very emotionally touching, but if you had a town of 100 poor people who make only 500 bucks a month, you'll NEVER get the kind of money the millionaire is making.  It's basic math.  Tax the poor all you like.  They're POOR.  You will get nothing but pocket change and lint out of them while all the people with the actual money get to swim in little money pools.

*exaggeration to denote a less-than-completely-serious-tone*

It's the principle.  If people want to apply the teachings of Jesus given to individuals regarding how the government should tax people, then they should apply the teaching of the poorest giving all they had.   Jesus didn't say, "And what that poor woman gave isn't gonna help much, so what she did was no big deal."

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But people aren't really interested in applying what Jesus taught about individual giving to taxes.  That's why they never apply this passage.   They just care about taking more of the wealthy's money, which can be a case of bitter envy.    Bitter envy is not of Jesus.