Sep 22, 2011 -- 2:48PM, tfvespasianus wrote:

 

Again, it is either the  government's job or the marketplace's (policed by the government)  job.

Sep 23, 2011 -- 10:46AM, lope wrote:

Objecting to incompetence in government is not robbing from the poor.  Saying it many times that Christians are robbing the poor by objecting to the governments financial mismanagement does not make it true.

I think its wise to object to graft, corruption, fraud and greed.  There is certainly nothing unChristian about watchdogging.  And heavy penalties should be instituted in cases where a company is caught charging usurious or worse prices.  I have heard of thousands of dollars charged for a screw.  I am suggesting seriously blacklisting any supplier that shows any hint of corruption and never be allowing them to submit bids or provide goods for US gov't programs again.  The list might grow quite long before people catch on that we won't tolerate it. 

By and large, I'm personally all for Christians helping the poor and we have ample opportunities even with gov't assistance for the poor.  In fact, some still go hungry. 

Sep 23, 2011 -- 1:36PM, tfvespasianus wrote:

 

  

Serious question  - if  there is a good health system (i.e. a system that provides high-quality,  easy-access, low-cost coverage/care) that involves substantial government  involvement, is it still just inherently bad?

Depends, you feel like riding down a slippery slope with me? 

Sep 23, 2011 -- 1:46PM, tfvespasianus wrote:

Only if there is good beer.

Would I go there if there wasn't?

With the free market, and no regulation on the competing groups, you will have a variety of services available.  By which I mean, an individual company could have increased rates for say, a smoker, or a diabetic, etc.  The individual person would be free to go to a different company for a different rate that was not as stringent as before.  With no regulation on them as to the number of places that could offer it, if larger companies, as you see now, were not competitive, smaller companies could pick up the slack.  Of course, all of that is on a fee for service basis which will by it's very nature exclude some. 

It is important to remember that a government controls more aspects of life than just insurance.  If they are responsible for insuring the individual, but are effectively a monopoly, the individual must deal with aspect say as fines for smoking.  There are no competing groups that offer competitive services. 

Let's look specifically at smoking.  Say the government insures all its population.  Smoking is a known health risk.  Stating that it is a health risk has not deterred people.  Higher taxes on a pack have not deterred people.  The government would next move to the solution that the insurance companies took.  Charging people more.  The form that this would likely take is fines.  A person who has a blood test and shows nicotine or metabolic by products in their blood would be forced to pay a fine.  Of course this is fair, right?  The government would have to pay more to take care of these people undertaking a known health risk, and it is unfair to charge more to the people not undertaking the risk in the form of taxes, right? 

Fast forward.  The fines have not deterred people from smoking.  The government, not wishing to pay more for increased care takes the next step.  They make it illegal to smoke.  This is a step that the insurance companies could not take. 

Now apply that to other aspects that are detrimental.  Alcohol, sugar, red meat, high fructose corn syrup, motorcycling, air travel, etc.  You don't think it will go there?  Look at the auto industry, the air travel industry, tv, and radio.  It's already starting. 

Even I say that if the government is going to pay for the up keep and construction of the roads, that it is their right to dictate the manner in which they are used.  If the government is going to pay for the maintenance of our bodies, how long before it becomes their right to dictate the manner that we live in our bodies? 

I'm not saying that it would happen in our lifetimes, or our children's lifetimes, or even our grandchildren's lifetimes, but it more than likely would happen.  And it would happen not because we thought about the consequences of our actions, but because we wanted a solution to the problem that we had at hand, and we so eager to get it solved that we turned over something like this to something like the government that we have now. 

all

Ok, christians tithe 10%, and just where does most of that money go too, really big elaborate and very expensive churches that cost a lot of money to run and upkeep. I know all too well, I was on a church budget committe that was struggeling to find a way to add another 1.8 million dollars to make the church bigger on top of the 1.6 million that was already being paid off, not to mention the $106,000 yearly budget they needed for staff and janitors.......and that was a small church!

Volunteers take a vow of poverty and go to other countries to provide aid, yet the ones sending them are making an average of$80k per year. Which isn't including the free perks they get....compliments of the government.

So, christians as it stand now are not taking care of their own, or anyone else for that matter. although there are a few religious homeless shelters run by true christians and some soup kitchens where oh my god, even atheist and agnostics volunteer.

When health insurance companies were deregulated what happened, hundreds of thousands were either refused coverage for life saving treatments, or just arbitrarily dropped. Esp. hurt were people were had a condition who was dropped from a insurance company could not get health insurance because of the preexisting condition. Insurance rates rose to unaffordable levels, some people's incomes were cut in half paying for health insurance....not paying for taxes.

So yes, it is governments responsibility to protect it's citizens, they do it with the military, with DOHD, etc. And esp. when it comes to health care, the government has the responsibility to protect the ones who are taken advantage of, it's called they write laws. And it sure ticks me off when I hear of government waste, esp. the stupid amount of money it takes to run for public office, but what really ticks me off is when a big corporation promises us jobs if they get multi billion dollar tax breaks and bail outs and they turn around and hire some slaves in another country and give themselves billions of dollars in bonus's for hiring slave labor in other countries. Oh, and of course sink millions of dollars into politicians pockets.

And don't mention hospitals that are run by religious oranizations......have you ever gotten a hospital bill from one of them?

Face it, christianity cannot and will not help the sick or the poor. They only want to help themselves so they won't go to hell, CYA.

The only recourse this country has is government. And if someone wants to abolish the federal government and give everything under state control, in no time we'll have Texas and Arizona invading other states and expecting converstion or death and in no time the whole country will be under the control of Texas......and here we go again, a ruling government.