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Switch to Forum Live View What are the Christian values America was founded upon?
6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 4:38PM #51
geologist
Posts: 3,143

Sep 20, 2011 -- 4:15PM, Kwinters wrote:


According to Christians, this is equivalent to the word of God:


 


Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 


For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 


Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.


This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.




Opposing tax increases and supporting candidates who oppose raising taxes hardly represent a rebellion against authority.  Unless, of course, you view Obama as a dictator and think that everyone is obligated to submit to his will.  

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 4:45PM #52
TENAC
Posts: 30,170

Sep 20, 2011 -- 4:04PM, Kwinters wrote:


Sep 20, 2011 -- 10:41AM, davelaw40 wrote:


Sep 18, 2011 -- 8:15AM, Kwinters wrote:

I've heard people say that America is a Christian nation.  I've heard people say that America was founded upon the basis of Christian values.

Given that nations are political entities, this implies that America's government should aim to instantiate the values of Christianity. 



not really-its more of an historical starting place than justification for objective action


 


for example one of our basis for democracy is the New England Town Hall meeting which evolved from the congregational church meeting


American Bankruptcy law was inspired by the OT Jubilee laws


separation of church and state = render unto Ceasar


nowhere did Jesus ever mandate that a State forceable redistribute wealth to aid the less fortunate-the onus is always on the individual





 


Jesus paid his taxes without complaint.  


You can't infer anything from silence, but Jesus says one should pay tax - as does Paul, - and Jesus paid his tax without complaint.


Plus, Jesus hung out with tax collectors.


Seems Jesus was, both in word and deed, pro-tax.





Pro tax?!  I dont think Jesus felt one way or the other about taxes.

Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 5:19PM #53
Rgurley4
Posts: 11,795

What are the Christian values America was founded upon?


1....America (USA) is a Christian nation. 
2....America (USA) was founded upon...Christian values.
3....America's (USA Federal) government should aim to instantiate (promote?) the values of Christianity.
"instantiate" : ~=to represent (an abstraction) by a concrete instance ...huh?


Using (ONLY? Bible) passages from the teachings of Jesus...


4. ... which (Federal) programs funded by taxpayers and run by the government achieve Christian (values).
5. ... what other things can the (Federal) government do in order to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven on earth?


1. WRONG: True Christ-following citizens are a MINORITY!
2. a LIMITED TRUE:...but not ALL "founding fathers" were True Christ-following citizens.
3. WRONG: The 1st Amendment guarantees freedom of religion and prevents the imposition of a religion on citizens.
( By the way, the US Supreme Court created "separation of church and state" doctrine, NOT the 1st Amendment.)
4. IMPOSSIBLE to answer: many Federal programs have humane and just laws to govern citizens and their freedoms.
5. IMPOSSIBLE to answer: many Federal programs can be added / improved to govern citizens and their freedoms.


Jesus could easily discern the GOOD programs and laws because He was Divine and Perfect...Ask Him!...through prayer and Bible Study!


I BELIEVE Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ, The Messiah, The God-Man would agree with Paul :


Romans 13: 1-7 (NASB)...Believing Christ-Followers: Be Subject to Government


Every person (beleiever) is to be in subjection to the governing authorities.
For there is no authority except from God,
and those which exist are established by God.
Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God;
and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
For rulers (of government) are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil.
Do you want to have no fear of authority?
Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
for it (government) is a minister (agent) of God to you for good.
But if you do what is evil, be afraid;
for it (government) does not bear the sword for nothing; (Capital Punishment!)
for it (government) is a minister (agent) of God,
an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
Therefore it is necessary (for believers) to be in subjection,
not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.
For because of this you also pay taxes,
for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
Render to all (in government) what is due them:
tax to whom tax is due;
custom to whom custom;
fear to whom fear;
honor to whom honor.


Matthew 22: 15-22 (NASB) - Jesus: Pay tribute to Caesar (government)


Then the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap Him in what He said.
And they sent their disciples (leaders?) to Him, along with the Herodians, saying,
“Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, (Amen!)
and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any. (Amen!)
Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?”


But Jesus perceived their malice, and said,
“Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites?
Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax.”
And they brought Him a denarius (Roman coin)
And He said to them,
“Whose likeness and inscription is this?”


21 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.”


Then He said to them,
 “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s;
and to God the things that are God’s.”


22 And hearing this, they were amazed, and leaving Him, they went away.


“Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites?

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 5:53PM #54
Kwinters
Posts: 24,617

Sep 20, 2011 -- 4:45PM, TENAC wrote:


Pro tax?!  I dont think Jesus felt one way or the other about taxes.





 


Does the Bible have stories of Jesus paying his taxes?

Does the Bible present Jesus as telling others to pay their taxes?


Does the Bible direct Christians, without any ambiguity, to pay their taxes?


 


The answer, by the way, is yet.


I don't see a single word in the christian scriptures against paying taxes. 

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 5:56PM #55
Kwinters
Posts: 24,617

Sep 20, 2011 -- 4:38PM, geologist wrote:


Sep 20, 2011 -- 4:15PM, Kwinters wrote:


According to Christians, this is equivalent to the word of God:


 


Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 


For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 


Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.


This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.




Opposing tax increases and supporting candidates who oppose raising taxes hardly represent a rebellion against authority.  Unless, of course, you view Obama as a dictator and think that everyone is obligated to submit to his will.  





 


Where does Jesus ever say you should oppose tax increases?


Doesn't Jesus tell you to render unto Caesar what is his?


Doesn't he tell you to give your treasure to the poor so you will have treasure in heaven.


Doesn't he say you can't serve two masters?


 


There is high praise for voluntary poverty, for giving wealth up and for living a life of giving your money to others.


There is nothing that supports keeping money for yourself

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 6:30PM #56
arielg
Posts: 9,116

The attempt to reconcile Jesus teachings with wordly affairs shows a lack of understanding about what he was teaching. 


 His teachings are about  eternal spiritual truths, not passing mundane affairs, which depends on constantly changing exterior circumstances.  His advise about paying taxes or "Giving Ceasar what is Ceasar's " is just a way to live in peace in the world,  avoiding unnecessary conflicts and not getting   lost in mundane  affairs which distracts  from the awaremess of the spiritual life.


That avoidance of unnecessary conflicts is what monks  base  their  way of life on,  away from  the meanigless happenings of societies with their governments.

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 6:55PM #57
Erey
Posts: 21,730

Sep 20, 2011 -- 6:30PM, arielg wrote:


The attempt to reconcile Jesus teachings with wordly affairs shows a lack of understanding about what he was teaching. 


 His teachings are about  eternal spiritual truths, not passing mundane affairs, which depends on constantly changing exterior circumstances.  His advise about paying taxes or "Giving Ceasar what is Ceasar's " is just a way to live in peace in the world,  avoiding unnecessary conflicts and not getting   lost in mundane  affairs which distracts  from the awaremess of the spiritual life.


That avoidance of unnecessary conflicts is what monks  base  their  way of life on,  away from  the meanigless happenings of societies with their governments.





I agree Ariel, Jesus was all about the truths and giving Ceasar what is Ceasars is a way to live peaceably.  You live peaceably so you can focus on what truly matters which most of the time is not the minutia of government. 

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 6:59PM #58
Rgurley4
Posts: 11,795


...There is nothing (Biblical) that supports keeping money for yourself....


WORSHIP of MONEY is forbidden!
USE of MONEY by believers, especially for GOOD is encouraged!


Luke 19 (NASB)...Jesus: on How to USE your MONEY...a parable...The MORAL
I tell you that to everyone who has (MONEY), more shall be given,
but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.(if he does not wisely handle it!)


Ecclesiastes 7:12 ...earthy old Soloman or ?
For wisdom is protection, just as money is protection,
But the advantage of knowledge is that wisdom preserves the lives of its possessors.


Ecclesiastes 10:19...earthy old Soloman or ?
Men prepare a meal for enjoyment,
and wine makes life merry,
and money is the answer to everything.


Acts 20
 Now when Simon (the Magician) saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them MONEY, 19 saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the HolySpirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!


 

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2011 - 12:28PM #59
Stardove
Posts: 17,597

Note: this thread was moved from the US News and Politics forum.

Beliefnet Community Wide Moderator ~ Peace Love Stardove


People change for two main reasons: either their minds have been opened or their hearts have been broken.
---Anonymous

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 24, 2011 - 3:10PM #60
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,267

I'll be back to read the thread the rest of the way through, but...


KWinters, would you mind if I started a similar thread like this on the Christian-to-Christian Debate board? While that board is for Christians only, we have quite a bit of diversity of views over there! I think it would be an interesting discussion.


I didn't want to just 'copy-cat' you without asking first! Some people get annoyed with that.

More where that came from...

Writing I get paid to do

Beliefnet Community Host - Christian Faith and Life, Christian to Christian Debate
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