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Switch to Forum Live View What are the Christian values America was founded upon?
6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 11:20AM #31
Erey
Posts: 21,730

Sep 18, 2011 -- 7:55PM, arielg wrote:


"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. "


 


Countries cannot be found on Christian principles.  The principles of a country contradict Christian principles. The highest aim of a country is it's own survival, not the truth. The trashing of every Christian principle can be  justified in the name of country. 


It is not possible to apply  the teaching  you cited above to a country.  The defense of country  accepts killing, lying or any other action.  A nationalist can only be a pseudo-Christian.


The teachings of Christ can only be lived by the individual.




I agree, it is an individual journey as in a challenge for an individual vs. larger society.


 


However if you look at small, homogenous groups like say the Amish for example they seem to be able to go down that road at least part of the way as a community. 


In fact I think all of these religious ideals and even secular ideals such as communism are best orchestrated in small groups that reside within a larger more powerful community.


The only reason the Amish can be Amish and turn the other cheek as they are known to do and have what I think is a sucessfull communist society is because they have the support and protection of the larger American (sometimes it is Canadian) society.  If they were a country unto themselves they would be victimized and persecuted out of existance.  They would not be able to maintain their ideals.

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 11:32AM #32
geologist
Posts: 3,143

Sep 20, 2011 -- 11:15AM, vra wrote:



nowhere did Jesus ever mandate that a State forceable redistribute wealth to aid the less fortunate-the onus is always on the individual




Why would Jesus mention that if it was a given, which it very much was?  He would be well aware of what Torah said.  He would be well aware of what the Great Sanhedrin and Temple authorities did to help the poor.  Why in the world would he negate that?


So, it seems to me that one should be looking for some definitive evidence that Jesus did not want the government or a quasi-governmental body to help the poor, and I fail to see where he mentions or implies that.  Judaism has always felt that helping the poor was an obligation of the entire community, and never have we assumed that government should stay out of the picture, and that continues on through today even though we obviously do not control the government here in the diasporah. 




Ancient Israel was organized as a theocratic state.  It was also a small community, nothing like the secular nation-states of today.   In Jesus time the governing authority was the Roman Empire.  Jesus never once appealed to Rome to take care of the poor.  He never even implied that it should do so.  He appealed to his followers, and would be followers, to love God and neighbor as oneself, and to give from the heart as an expression of love and faith.  Never did he teach, hint or imply that giving should be done at the point of the Roman spear. 

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 11:41AM #33
vra
Posts: 7,467

Sep 20, 2011 -- 11:32AM, geologist wrote:


Ancient Israel was organized as a theocratic state.  It was also a small community, nothing like the secular nation-states of today.   In Jesus time the governing authority was the Roman Empire.  Jesus never once appealed to Rome to take care of the poor.  He never even implied that it should do so.  He appealed to his followers, and would be followers, to love God and neighbor as oneself, and to give from the heart as an expression of love and faith.  Never did he teach, hint or imply that giving should be done at the point of the Roman spear. 





Jesus had no authority over the Romans but, as I mentioned, he was well aware of Torah and the role required by Torah in regards to the obligations of the state, so I ask you exactly where he states that the state or some other quasi-govenmental body that replaces it should not take care of the poor?  Chapter and verse, please?  The burden of proof is really on those who think that Jesus essentially walked away from what Torah teaches (see Judaism 101 that can link one to the 613 Mosaiic Laws). 


What you have done is to totally take Jesus way out of the Jewish mileu he was very much part of and to place him in a modern western non-Jewish setting.  Next you'll probably have him wrapped in an American flag yelling "U.S.A., U.S.A.!".  


 

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 11:58AM #34
withwonderingawe
Posts: 6,091

Sep 19, 2011 -- 11:52AM, Mostyn32 wrote:


First of all, the US was not founded on Christian teachings. Most of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christians per se....... A nation, by definition, cannot be Christian...or indeed, of any faith...because faith is an individual matter.




 


That depends on how one defines Christian. 



The term ‘Christian’ has been usurped by one faction under the Christian umbrella. I heard a girl once say, I use to be Catholic but now I’m Christian. With that one sentence she wiped out the oldest and largest denomination off the Christian map.   



The founding fathers were Bible believers and used a great deal of it to form their opinions. “Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half (24) held seminary or Bible school degrees”.  


 
Here’s a quote from Samuel Adams 


"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace." 

But then a quote from Benjamin Franklin  


"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.
That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;
But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure." --Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

I’m going to assume all the rest lay somewhere in between.


 


christianity.about.com/od/independenceda...

Wise men still seek him.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 12:04PM #35
arielg
Posts: 9,116

Jesus had no authority over the Romans but, as I mentioned, he was well aware of Torah and the role required by Torah in regards to the obligations of the state, so I ask you exactly where he states that the state or some other quasi-govenmental body that replaces it should not take care of the poor?  Chapter and verse, please?  The burden of proof is really on those who think that Jesus essentially walked away from what Torah teaches (see Judaism 101 that can link one to the 613 Mosaiic Laws).



What you have done is to totally take Jesus way out of the Jewish mileu he was very much part of and to place him in a modern western non-Jewish setting.  Next you'll probably have him wrapped in an American flag yelling "U.S.A., U.S.A.!". 


 


 
Jesus was not a Jew required to observe the Torah or any other human established norm.  You cannot reduce him to a Jew, just because he was born into a Jewish milieu, any more than you can say Einstein wisdom was "Jewish" wisdom. He was a free man who lived and acted according to the understanding that came from his higher state of consciousness, which is universal.


His message is that we can all reach that state.  He endeavored to teach how to go about doing it. 


  Someone who understands what we are, will naturally help others. It cannot be coerced or imposed from the outside.  If it is, it will be phoney and will create a reaction and do more harm than good.


 

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 12:24PM #36
LeahOne
Posts: 18,418

ArielG, as you are neither a Jew nor a Christian, I don't think your POV is likely to be at all accurate on the topic of Jesus.


Einstein was a physicist:  Jesus was a religious philospher.  Hard science has no 'spiritual componant':  religious philosophy is pretty much ALL spiritual.  Which is why Einstein's wisdom is less 'Jewish' than Jesus'.  


 

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 12:48PM #37
Erey
Posts: 21,730

Sep 20, 2011 -- 11:58AM, withwonderingawe wrote:


Sep 19, 2011 -- 11:52AM, Mostyn32 wrote:


First of all, the US was not founded on Christian teachings. Most of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christians per se....... A nation, by definition, cannot be Christian...or indeed, of any faith...because faith is an individual matter.




 


That depends on how one defines Christian. 



The term ‘Christian’ has been usurped by one faction under the Christian umbrella. I heard a girl once say, I use to be Catholic but now I’m Christian. With that one sentence she wiped out the oldest and largest denomination off the Christian map.   



The founding fathers were Bible believers and used a great deal of it to form their opinions. “Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half (24) held seminary or Bible school degrees”.  


 
Here’s a quote from Samuel Adams 


"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace." 

But then a quote from Benjamin Franklin  


"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.
That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;
But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure." --Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

I’m going to assume all the rest lay somewhere in between.


 


christianity.about.com/od/independenceda...




I agree the whole they were not christian but were deists is way overplayed and not a little misleading.


That is sort of like saying she is not a christian because she has taken a yoga class for the last two years. 

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 12:57PM #38
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Sep 20, 2011 -- 11:15AM, vra wrote:



nowhere did Jesus ever mandate that a State forceable redistribute wealth to aid the less fortunate-the onus is always on the individual




Why would Jesus mention that if it was a given, which it very much was?  He would be well aware of what Torah said.  He would be well aware of what the Great Sanhedrin and Temple authorities did to help the poor.  Why in the world would he negate that?




He wouldn't; but Rome was the authority-if we are trying to squeeze the US into the Gospels -DC is Rome

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 1:57PM #39
arielg
Posts: 9,116

Sep 20, 2011 -- 12:24PM, LeahOne wrote:


ArielG, as you are neither a Jew nor a Christian, I don't think your POV is likely to be at all accurate on the topic of Jesus.


That is one reason  it can be accurate: it is not distorted by false beliefs.


Jesus was not a Christian either. That was made up later by followers when they started interpreting and distorting what he said.


You are just trying to have your  Jewish ideology  validated by attempting  to claim him as a speaker for your beliefs.  He was way beyond that. Wisdom and understanding has nothing to do with  fixed ideologies.


Einstein was a physicist:  Jesus was a religious philospher.  Hard science has no 'spiritual componant':  religious philosophy is pretty much ALL spiritual.  Which is why Einstein's wisdom is less 'Jewish' than Jesus'. 


Nonsense. 


 




 

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2011 - 3:47PM #40
Kwinters
Posts: 24,617

Sep 18, 2011 -- 6:38PM, TENAC wrote:


You make the mistake of attempting to cross Christianity into a man created entity; government.


 


Christianity begins and ends with the individual and how that individual dies to him or herself daily to take up the teachings of Jesus.


I dont recall Jesus saying, "Give of your money to the Romans to redistribute to those in need."  Governemnts are corrupt and do this poorly.  In many instances the same can be said about church Governments as well.


But those with in whom Christ lives are constantly called back to His teachings, irregardless of governments both secular and religious.


So, in the teachings you mention, it is up to me and you, individually or a community of like minded individuals to see to and carry out the teachings of Christ so to live a life more like His.  Again, die to self, live for Him.


Now if I tell you I take charitable contributions off my taxes, many would consider that hippocritical.  But my charitable giving isnt predicated on my tax liability.  It is set aside regardless of what the government might do.


Let me ask you, what do you think will suffer most if obama gets his way with his idea of tax reform; the churches or the charitable agencies of the govt?





 


You clearly haven't read your own Bible on the topic of taxes.


 






    After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"

    "Yes, he does," he replied.


    When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?"


    "From others," Peter answered.



    "Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. "But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."






 






    "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.





    Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. 








Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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