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Switch to Forum Live View The Grand Allusion.
3 years ago  ::  Aug 30, 2011 - 6:28AM #1
Neomonist
Posts: 2,686

Teachers on the mystical paths have been teaching for many years that all this is an illusion. Because most of them take the negative connotation of the word, it takes on the understanding of fake. I submit it would behoove us to look at all this as an allusion, a pointing towards a deeper truth; we call metaphysical truths ‘deeper’ truths after all. The Divine Oneness is not limited to the categories of ‘real’ and ‘false’. Accept the validity, as well as the falseness, of things; embrace both without being concerned with which one is true. From one direction, it is real. After all, there is something going on that gives rise to all these impressions. From another, it is false, because all these ‘things’ are manifestations of the One, not the One.


From Wictionary.


Allusion


  1. An indirect reference; a hint; a reference to something supposed to be known, but not explicitly mentioned; a covert indication


All talk about the Divine Oneness is an indirect reference as there is nothing to compare Oneness to for illustration. We can toss out hints of what it is like, but we cannot say what it is, because ‘this’ is dependent upon ‘that’. Positive is invoked to point to negative, then we have to come full circle and invoke negative to point to positive. Material and ideal are used in contradistinction to describe each other, with neither being “The Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing but the Truth”


One of the reasons I prefer ‘allusion’ to ‘illusion’ is because the latter is understood in the context of fake; what is fake can be dismissed. An ‘allusion’ is a pointing at a deeper truth; it may not be real, but neither is it false. One can dismiss an illusion because it points at itself; an allusion points at ‘something else’ and we fail to see the point when we dismiss the pointer. In addition, realizing the allusion is a pointer at a deeper truth prevents it from becoming an idol to be worshiped in place of the ‘thing’ it pointing out. This approach also prevents the pointer from becoming dismissed as unworthy of consideration.

Standard Disclaimer: This is just my 2cents worth.
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 30, 2011 - 7:12AM #2
BIRK
Posts: 1,914

I am so guilty of this.


  The connotation that an illusion is not real is greatly accepted when I apply it to the idea that O could ever be seperate from Me.


  Some Beings allusion, is the idea that  O  is up there somewhere, that Heaven is somewhere else other then were they are standing.


 Or there is no O and that Love is nothing more then one of many different emotions we humans are subject to.


  Their Allusion become their reality, so it becomes difficult for anyone to see it as anything less then authentic.


  Can you experience an allusion in the present moment,or does it fade away when Love is directed to it?



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3 years ago  ::  Aug 30, 2011 - 7:17AM #3
Neomonist
Posts: 2,686

Aug 30, 2011 -- 7:12AM, BIRK wrote:


  Their Allusion become their reality, so it becomes difficult for anyone to see it as anything less then authentic.





I think we all occasionally mistake the map for the territory.

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 30, 2011 - 7:56AM #4
BIRK
Posts: 1,914

You are right. 


 A map only tells you where someone else has been. What he found and how he got home.


  We can take the time to study and compare all the maps as we wander around this glorious territory, going everywhere we want to go.  Or we can wander the territory and create our own as it is experienced.  Or Both...


 I prefer both as we file this under Lessons learned.


  In my travels I stumble accross maps to places I have been and may not particularly agree with the distances and terrain, but overall it does seem to meander around to the only destination.      Home to Me/You/Us.


  The One 

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 30, 2011 - 8:00AM #5
Neomonist
Posts: 2,686

Aug 30, 2011 -- 7:56AM, BIRK wrote:


You are right. 


 A map only tells you where someone else has been. What he found and how he got home.


  We can take the time to study and compare all the maps as we wander around this glorious territory, going everywhere we want to go.  Or we can wander the territory and create our own as it is experienced.  Or Both...





I like to make a map of where I've been in case I want to go back for a short visit.


 

Standard Disclaimer: This is just my 2cents worth.
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 31, 2011 - 11:28PM #6
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,278

Aug 30, 2011 -- 6:28AM, Neomonist wrote:


Teachers on the mystical paths have been teaching for many years that all this is an illusion. Because most of them take the negative connotation of the word, it takes on the understanding of fake. I submit it would behoove us to look at all this as an allusion, a pointing towards a deeper truth; we call metaphysical truths ‘deeper’ truths after all. The Divine Oneness is not limited to the categories of ‘real’ and ‘false’. Accept the validity, as well as the falseness, of things; embrace both without being concerned with which one is true. From one direction, it is real. After all, there is something going on that gives rise to all these impressions. From another, it is false, because all these ‘things’ are manifestations of the One, not the One.


From Wictionary.


Allusion


  1. An indirect reference; a hint; a reference to something supposed to be known, but not explicitly mentioned; a covert indication


All talk about the Divine Oneness is an indirect reference as there is nothing to compare Oneness to for illustration. We can toss out hints of what it is like, but we cannot say what it is, because ‘this’ is dependent upon ‘that’. Positive is invoked to point to negative, then we have to come full circle and invoke negative to point to positive. Material and ideal are used in contradistinction to describe each other, with neither being “The Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing but the Truth”


One of the reasons I prefer ‘allusion’ to ‘illusion’ is because the latter is understood in the context of fake; what is fake can be dismissed. An ‘allusion’ is a pointing at a deeper truth; it may not be real, but neither is it false. One can dismiss an illusion because it points at itself; an allusion points at ‘something else’ and we fail to see the point when we dismiss the pointer. In addition, realizing the allusion is a pointer at a deeper truth prevents it from becoming an idol to be worshiped in place of the ‘thing’ it pointing out. This approach also prevents the pointer from becoming dismissed as unworthy of consideration.




I am not a non-dualist, therefore I don't subscribe to all this "All is One" business. Therefore, I have never considered *this* to be an illusion.


There is God (Creator, Ein Sof), and there is everything else. Everything else is not an illusion.


Everything else is one, but not One with God.


There is a real and actual movement within "everything else" (that would include us).


The movement is to realize God as Source of life. This, is to become united with God, but not as identity.


This is vastly different from what non-dualism teaches.


If we believe the non-truth of non-dualism, we will not strive to become united with God, we think we already are.


sdp   

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 31, 2011 - 11:56PM #7
Neomonist
Posts: 2,686

Aug 31, 2011 -- 11:28PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


If we believe the non-truth of non-dualism, we will not strive to become united with God, we think we already are.





Once one accepts the truth of nondualism, one comes to realize there is nothing but -O-.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 01, 2011 - 8:14AM #8
BIRK
Posts: 1,914

If you are thinking that you are one with O then it is obvious that you are not.


   My  thoughts mean nothing. They carry no substance until I appy my emotion.


    Oneness can only be experienced now.


  What I think in relation to how I experience any particular event is a waste of a fully present energy.



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3 years ago  ::  Sep 01, 2011 - 2:46PM #9
Neomonist
Posts: 2,686

Sep 1, 2011 -- 8:14AM, BIRK wrote:


If you are thinking that you are one with O then it is obvious that you are not.





It is not a case of oneness with -O-, it is a case of Oneness.


When you include the term "with", you are thinking dualistically.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 01, 2011 - 6:25PM #10
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,444

Some Hindu's believe that the world is not an illusion, but illusory. Since -o- is real, whatever manifest from -o- is also real. What is considered unreal is accepting this world as the all-in-all, thinking that we can find more happiness in external things than in the self. It is in this sense it is considered illusory.

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