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doctrinal negotiation and compromise
10 months ago  ::  Aug 24, 2011 - 2:41PM #1
Aka_me
Posts: 6,645

in the tickles and snuggles forum, I ran across the following website.


and nearly fell out of my chair at the following:


First, some full disclosure. The institutional church I belong to has never been comfortable with the word, ecumenical. While the definition of the word has shifted in past decades, in the Mormon mind “ecumenical” still carries with it a sense of doctrinal negotiation and compromise. That has never been on the Mormon agenda, and neither can it be if you know anything about Mormon history and how the church views revelation 


could it be this author FORGOT how "doctrine" got removed from the Doctrine and Covenants?


could it be this author FORGOT how multiple sections have been decided upon whether to be added... or not?


it's difficult to imagine that someone as "high up" as the head of public affairs for the church, doesn't realize his own canon has been JUST AS MUCH a negotiation and compromise as mainstream Christianity.


clueless, or deception?

how does that feel to be a lawnmower man? must be a real rush.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 24, 2011 - 10:53PM #2
Ironhold
Posts: 8,201

*headdesk*


1. You get on me for supposedly dragging things from board-to-board, but it's OK for you to do it?


2. If you'd actually pay attention to his words, you'll note that he's talking about the church as a whole, including the overall membership. Not the church leadership per se.


And yes, quite a few Mormons are leery about the rest of Christianity due to the way so many mainliners have treated us over the years. Even prominent mainline Christians like Richard Muow and Craig Blomberg have admitted that the way we Mormons have been treated over the years is inexcusable.

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10 months ago  ::  Aug 25, 2011 - 12:36AM #3
Aka_me
Posts: 6,645

is it not obvious that debate CAN'T occur over there?


ok, so then "starting from the same article" mentioned over there...


a debate topic was started "over here"


not exactly what I'd call "PhD level of difficulty".


 


the question is, do you think he suffers from cluelessitis


in not knowing how the Doctrine and Coventents was negotiated and compromised


or is he outright deceptive?


again, not exactly what I'd call "PhD level of difficulty" here either.

how does that feel to be a lawnmower man? must be a real rush.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 25, 2011 - 2:40AM #4
Habala?!
Posts: 750

Aug 24, 2011 -- 10:53PM, Ironhold wrote:


*headdesk*


1. You get on me for supposedly dragging things from board-to-board, but it's OK for you to do it?


2. If you'd actually pay attention to his words, you'll note that he's talking about the church as a whole, including the overall membership. Not the church leadership per se.


And yes, quite a few Mormons are leery about the rest of Christianity due to the way so many mainliners have treated us over the years. Even prominent mainline Christians like Richard Muow and Craig Blomberg have admitted that the way we Mormons have been treated over the years is inexcusable.





I was LDS for more than half my life (I'm 27) and not a single soul persecuted me for it. Explain that.

"When you walk, you might like to take the hand of a child. She will receive your concentration and stability, and you will receive her freshness and innocence." -Tich Naht Hanh
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 25, 2011 - 8:48AM #5
Ironhold
Posts: 8,201

Aug 25, 2011 -- 2:40AM, Habala?! wrote:


I was LDS for more than half my life (I'm 27) and not a single soul persecuted me for it. Explain that.





You got lucky.


In some places, anti-LDS hostility is such that it's a virtual free-fire zone.


What's more, even such seemingly noble groups as the Fellowship of Christian Athletes have come down and declared that Mormons aren't actually Christian; "How Wide The Divide?" notes a situation in which a Mormon student lost his FCA scholarship when the FCA found out what his religion was.

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10 months ago  ::  Aug 25, 2011 - 9:06AM #6
MysticWanderer
Posts: 1,137

Aug 24, 2011 -- 2:41PM, Aka_me wrote:


 


could it be this author FORGOT how "doctrine" got removed from the Doctrine and Covenants?


could it be this author FORGOT how multiple sections have been decided upon whether to be added... or not?


it's difficult to imagine that someone as "high up" as the head of public affairs for the church, doesn't realize his own canon has been JUST AS MUCH a negotiation and compromise as mainstream Christianity.


clueless, or deception?





Elucidate please.  Exactly which doctrines were removed form D&C when and how?  What so you mean when you say additions to D&C were negotiated?  Please use specific examples and give and sources you can.

"Not all who wander are lost" J.R.R.Tolkein
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. ~Anne Lamott
"Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
Friedrich von Schiller
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 25, 2011 - 9:13AM #7
MysticWanderer
Posts: 1,137

Aug 25, 2011 -- 8:48AM, Ironhold wrote:


Aug 25, 2011 -- 2:40AM, Habala?! wrote:


I was LDS for more than half my life (I'm 27) and not a single soul persecuted me for it. Explain that.





You got lucky.


In some places, anti-LDS hostility is such that it's a virtual free-fire zone.


What's more, even such seemingly noble groups as the Fellowship of Christian Athletes have come down and declared that Mormons aren't actually Christian; "How Wide The Divide?" notes a situation in which a Mormon student lost his FCA scholarship when the FCA found out what his religion was.




I must state for the record that other than my daughter who feels I have joined a mind controlled cult, I have received no difficulty from any of my old friends or new acquaintances about my membership in this church.  I have received questions and disagreements but not even disrespect.  Long before I joined the church I knew members especially when serving in the USAF, again I noted no harassment or persecution.  Are there some in this nation especially among more fundamentalist and evangelical churches who deride the church?  Absolutely but disagreement even to the point of calling it a cult simply represents ignorance and should be attacked by love, understanding and tolerance not by circling the wagons.

"Not all who wander are lost" J.R.R.Tolkein
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. ~Anne Lamott
"Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
Friedrich von Schiller
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 25, 2011 - 10:41AM #8
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,439

Aug 25, 2011 -- 8:48AM, Ironhold wrote:


Aug 25, 2011 -- 2:40AM, Habala?! wrote:


I was LDS for more than half my life (I'm 27) and not a single soul persecuted me for it. Explain that.





You got lucky.


In some places, anti-LDS hostility is such that it's a virtual free-fire zone.


What's more, even such seemingly noble groups as the Fellowship of Christian Athletes have come down and declared that Mormons aren't actually Christian; "How Wide The Divide?" notes a situation in which a Mormon student lost his FCA scholarship when the FCA found out what his religion was.




And Ironhold, I wasn't aware that mormons believed in luck.  Would you expand on that?

Moderated by Stardove on Aug 26, 2011 - 05:59PM
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 25, 2011 - 10:44AM #9
Bob_the_Lunatic
Posts: 3,439

@Mystic-exactly.  I see people as people.  While I think LDS doctrine is ridiculous and shallow, I know lots of mormons I like and respect.  I also know a few very obnoxious mormons.


Most people will judge you for your behavior, not your church.  And there is no question LDS is as official a religion as any other.  "Cult" is just a buzz word used by the fearful.  Just as they might dismiss others as "Heathens", they will also call "theirs a 'church' and the one down the street a 'cult'."

Moderated by Stardove on Aug 26, 2011 - 06:01PM
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 25, 2011 - 1:17PM #10
Aka_me
Posts: 6,645

Aug 25, 2011 -- 9:06AM, MysticWanderer wrote:

Elucidate please.  Exactly which doctrines were removed form D&C when and how?  What so you mean when you say additions to D&C were negotiated?  Please use specific examples and give and sources you can.



this is stuff which should be taught in church


so as to prevent members such as the author of that article from shooting their mouth off with a subliminal arrogant attitude of being "better" than mainstream Christianity. when reality would demonstate being worse by allowing lay people to negotiate and compromise canonized scripture.


On September 24, 1834 a committee was appointed by the general assembly of the church to organize a new volume containing the most significant Latter Day Saint revelations. This committee of Presiding Elders, consisting of Joseph Smith, Jr., Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, and Frederick G. Williams, began to review and revise numerous revelations for inclusion in the new work. The committee eventually organized the book into two parts: a "Doctrine" part followed by a "Covenants" part.


...


On February 17, 1835, after the committee had selected the book's contents, the committee wrote that the resulting work represents "our belief, and when we say this, humbly trust, the faith and principles of this society as a body.


...


At the end of the conference, the church "by a unanimous vote" agreed to accept the compilation as "the doctrine and covenants of their faith" and to make arrangements for its printing.


that's how the Bible was put together, by allowing the uneducated to vote on what goes in and what stays out.


The following sections are not revelations, but letters, reports, statements, and so forth: 102, 123, 127–131, 134, and 135


something which is NOT revelation... does not contain any reason to believe God wanted such canonized.


letters and reports... were added because humans negotiated and compromised to get them in there.


In 1921, the LDS Church removed the "Lectures on Faith" portion of the book, with an explanation that the Lectures "were never presented to nor accepted by the Church as being otherwise than theological lectures or lessons".[12] The Lectures contain theology concerning the Godhead and emphasize the importance of faith and works.


WHAT IN GOD'S NAME?


in 1920 the canon was in ERROR, it was INVALID, it was WRONG, it was MISTAKEN, it was INCORRECT.


of course God has no concern AT ALL for erroneous canon... you think He knows what the canon says, or cares what it contains????????


FugetAboutIt, no clue, no care.


who in their right mind canonized the LECTURES?


a canonizing process which makes mistakes, I don't recall off hand, how many times has mainstream Christianity CORRECTED the canonizing process.


the LDS process of canonizing needs to closely study the mainstream canonizing process so it can one day hope to eliminate MISTAKES.

how does that feel to be a lawnmower man? must be a real rush.
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