There is no getting around the fact that for the most part we humans are most comfortable in a place that is familiar to us. If we are contantly identifying ourselves with what we create then there is no reason to leave.
We agree. And therefore, we will keep attracting "crap", to drive us toward awakening.........and some will blame the "devil", for what is a gift from God..........
Roses always come with thorns. Sometimes, thorns first, sometimes roses first, and, sometimes, thorns outside, roses inside, sometimes roses outside, thorns inside.
Someone who dreams of drinking wine at a cheerful banquet may wake up crying the next morning. Someone who dreams of crying may go off the next morning to enjoy the sport of the hunt. When we are in the midst of a dream, we do not know it's a dream. Sometimes we may even try to interpret our dreams while we are dreaming, but then we awake and realize it was a dream. Only after one is greatly awakened does one realize that it was all a great dream, while the fool thinks that he is awake and presumptuously aware. Chuang Tzu
"The afflictions which come to humanity sometimes tend to center the consciousness upon the limitations. This is a veritable prison. Release comes by making of the will a door through which the confirmations of the spirit come. They come to a man or woman who accepts his life with Radiant Acquiescence."... Abdu'l-Baha'i, Divine Philosophy
From my perspective I think sometimes we can be too abstract in our thoughts and not relating to the human experience enough! For me we are always creating (or co-creating). I believe that's a part of being human. And without that part there would be no purpose in our human experience! We're either creating a negative or a positive environment. I see the 'prison' we are in only as the 'prison of self' which is our lack of understanding of how to grow positively, which in essence is the box, the self created confinement we've generated. In part it's our reliance on others for self worth and our many forms of fear especially the fear of change. It's the perceived need for over development and over dependence on the three areas/needs of our lives - the instinct for security, for relationships, for sex - to an extent beyond the requirements for our growth and development.
How we get out of that box/prison is not through ignoring basic human needs but through 'radiant acquiescence', as in the quote above, meaning to give in and be submissive to the Divine Will with joy and radiance. And the joy and radiance is of importance. I believe that the Divine Will is the motivating force/power behind all human advancements. By radiant acquiescence to that Will we attract positive qualities like understanding, love; tolerance, sympathy and cooperation in our relationships and we develop our need for relations, security and the sex impulse in a positive manner. We need to learn to get along with others but we no longer are worried about the shortcomings we see in humanity for we are more concerned with those within our own being. And we develop and grow as we are surely destined ...
My thoughts for what its worth to you .....
There is much in yor post that I like, Seefan, except for, of course, a number of baroque assumptions for which there is not an ounce of supportive evidence.
Many of the things you mention, the great virtues of love, tolerance, sympathy, cooperation, etc, can be had and lead to human flourishing without acquiescing to likely fictions as some wholly imagined "Divine Will".
The "prison", if one may call it such, that we humans inhabit is nothing other than our nature. That nature is the product of natural selection, of genes that are essentially and necessarily selfish, with a rigid set of rules that maximize a very narrow kind of short-term advantage. It is a system that works remarkably well, on its own limited terms. It has produced everything in us that is both 'good' and 'bad', but it is completely amoral, devoid of empathy and long-term concern.
It is up to us to provide these moral qualities, to give life on Earth a conscience. We are the world's first ethical animals, at the mercy still of our biology, but capable also of arising above it. Intelligence helps. It succeeds, at the very least, in widening our view. It gives us access to a whole range of new horizons, new possibilities, none of which require us to embrace unjustified assumptions or beliefs without evidence.
As to our "destinies", well, like our purposes, there is no one-size-fits-all. Those that think there is a single thing that is everyone's meaning in life - they are usually the purveyors of some ideology or religion that claims to know what this one-size-fits-all thing is - naturally wish to force everyone into the same mould, no matter what their starting shape might be. Of course many people like others to do their thinking for them, and accordingly want others to tell them what is valuable and how they should live.
The point I was hoping to make. is that there is no such thing as exclusion when it comes to creating a happy a prosperous existance on the Big Blue Ball.
Humans have been attaching themselve to their desire and identifying the self with the manifested outcome of those desires for thousands of years.
It is the attachment to what we create that manifest greed and turmoil.
Not the actual desire in and of itself, or where it came from.
In my opinon.
In Post #19 you are correct, we are not our thoughts. In this post you are also correct, humans attach themselves to desire (and hundreds of negative emotions) and identify self with the outcome. Again correct, attachment to what we create manifests greed and turmoil...etc...
To say it another way, most people live in a very tiny box, the borders of which are our desires (emotions), our conceptual world (thoughts) and our actions (habitual body-memory). This, we call self. And this "box" is actually a prison.
With all you say I don't see how you don't understand this. You do understand it, because you say humans live this way for thousands of years.
So the question is, how do we extract our true identity from the "box"? (Which is V-E-R-Y different from knowing this is possible theoretically).
To me, our true identity is that part of self that knows that thoughts, feelings, emotions, desires, memories, are all things that ride along the stream of consciousness. We witness that they come and go, but the witnessing itself is an ever constant. To even know that the "box" is a prison, is to be a witness to it.
Nice ......... take a lesson Namchuck........
As I said to Seefan, there were many things in his post that I liked, but there was no "lesson" within it other than, perhaps, why we should oblige ourselves to keeping our beliefs in proportion to the evidence.
After all, one unerring mark of the love of truth is not entertaining any proposition with greater assurance than the evidences' it is built upon will warrant. It is the chastity of the intellect.