comment in another thread got me to questioning whether it's possible to over exalt a Manifestation?
and if so, is it bad (why)?
I don't believe it's necessarily bad, just that it's risky in not being able to identify whether or not a new Manifestation has existed.
whether my following opinion is true or not is open to debate... but I believe Christians struggle with contemplating the station of Baha'u'llah for fear that it somehow diminishes the station of Jesus
one might argue this is a side effect of over exalting Jesus (never being able to contemplate the biblical prophecy of Christ returning "with a new name").
how does that feel to be a lawnmower man? must be a real rush.
The tendency goes both ways I think. We (people in general) seek to make men more than just men in an attempt to closer identify with God or whatever higher power to which we turn. At the same time we diminish God in an attempt to relate to him better. This is especially true for LDS. Many LDS claim that Jesus started out a man and became exalted to a god. If that's the case (which I don't happen to think it is) then it only makes sense that we can become exalted and be gods as well. It follows logically from the premises 1) Jesus was a man and 2) Jesus is a god. Most Christians reject 1. I reject 2 and along with it the pretense that I can become a god. Then there is the bad habit of giving God flesh and blood. Sometimes this is done by claiming that Jesus (who definitely had flesh and blood) was and is God. For LDS the habit more often exerts itself in making Heavenly Father an exalted man as with Jesus above. That's better for a personal relationship with Him than an unmanifest God but it diminishes our object of worship in a very real and perhaps detrimental sense.
My point I guess is that it feeds our egos to make men like us more than they are or God less than He is. Of course there is in my mind an equal an opposite danger in putting God (and our spiritual leaders for that matter) so far above us that we cease to aspire to the spark of the divine that is in each one of us. Do either of these problems occur with following Baha'ullah? I don't know; you tell me. I've definitely seen both extremes in Christians
"Better a live sparrow than a stuffed eagle" -E. Fitzgerald
The tendency goes both ways I think. We (people in general) seek to make men more than just men in an attempt to closer identify with God or whatever higher power to which we turn. At the same time we diminish God in an attempt to relate to him better. This is especially true for LDS. Many LDS claim that Jesus started out a man and became exalted to a god. If that's the case (which I don't happen to think it is) then it only makes sense that we can become exalted and be gods as well. It follows logically from the premises 1) Jesus was a man and 2) Jesus is a god. Most Christians reject 1. I reject 2 and along with it the pretense that I can become a god. Then there is the bad habit of giving God flesh and blood. Sometimes this is done by claiming that Jesus (who definitely had flesh and blood) was and is God. For LDS the habit more often exerts itself in making Heavenly Father an exalted man as with Jesus above. That's better for a personal relationship with Him than an unmanifest God but it diminishes our object of worship in a very real and perhaps detrimental sense.
Yer gettin' things just a touch backwards there.
Jesus was already divine from the get-go due to his parentage; however, he had to go through what he did in order to officially earn the title of Savior.
Rather, it was God who achieved exaltation and became who and what he is.
Aka, exactly whom are you seeking an answer from? :) Meaning from what particular viewpoint?
Obviously the Muslims would agree that people over exalt manifestations, with their explicit denial of the Divinity of Jesus Christ. However, to a Christian.. Jesus would be the Second Person of the Holy Trinity -- he was there before Abraham even existed. He was the "angel of the LORD" that came and spoke to Abraham, and the other prophets in the Old Testament. The Nicene Creed says that he is Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, NOT made, of one essence with the Father through whom all things were made.
If this is indeed the case which I believe it is, then there's no over exaltation. You are simply giving God the worship he is due through his incarnation. I know you will probably disagree with me, and that's OK because I know arguing is forbidden here.
Thanks Ironhold, I don't want to misrepresent what our church teaches. I was merely expressing the opinion that I have formed over years of experience interacting with Latter Day Saints. Your input and correction are appreciated.
Jesus was already divine from the get-go due to his parentage; however, he had to go through what he did in order to officially earn the title of Savior.
I compare "Blessed are the peacemakers: because they shall be called the children of God" (Matt 5:9) from Jesus with "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son..." (John 3:16a) from John. Now it seems to me either we all can share in that divine heritage or we can not. I tend to think it's the former rather than the latter, in other words that Jesus is our brother and that we can through faith and diligence become heirs to his eternal kingdom. So I ask do you believe that we are co-eternal beings with God and Jesus or that we do not share that divine spark about which I was typing?
Rather, it was God who achieved exaltation and became who and what he is.
Sorry, I thought the same applied to Jesus. If Jesus has always been a god but Heavenly Father started out a man and became God that creates more problems than it solves. Is that what your implying or have I missed you point?
"Better a live sparrow than a stuffed eagle" -E. Fitzgerald
Obviously the Muslims would agree that people over exalt manifestations, with their explicit denial of the Divinity of Jesus Christ. However, to a Christian.. Jesus would be the Second Person of the Holy Trinity -- he was there before Abraham even existed. He was the "angel of the LORD" that came and spoke to Abraham, and the other prophets in the Old Testament. The Nicene Creed says that he is Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, NOT made, of one essence with the Father through whom all things were made.
If this is indeed the case which I believe it is, then there's no over exaltation. You are simply giving God the worship he is due through his incarnation. I know you will probably disagree with me, and that's OK because I know arguing is forbidden here.
Much love!
it's no easy task for humans to correctly comprehend what a Manifestation is.
they are ALL beings who existed before time as we know it began, and have consciousness which is One with God.
I tend to "think" visually and made a graphical representation of the Divine Realms
from personal study, nothing about it is official:
when a Manifestation speaks from authority in realm 2... they can say they are God
when they speak from realm 5... they can say they are not God
and both are simultaneously true.
however, for Muhammad to deny the Divinity of Jesus, equates to a lesson plan for a third grader, the teacher knows they will receive information in the 12th grade to complement and complete what they are currently teaching the students. it just happens to be what the students "need" to hear today in the process of expanding their knowledge.
how does that feel to be a lawnmower man? must be a real rush.
Sorry, I thought the same applied to Jesus. If Jesus has always been a god but Heavenly Father started out a man and became God that creates more problems than it solves. Is that what your implying or have I missed you point?
I compare "Blessed are the peacemakers: because they shall be called the children of God" (Matt 5:9) from Jesus with "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son..." (John 3:16a) from John. Now it seems to me either we all can share in that divine heritage or we can not.
can't agree or disagree until I understand.
does that mean creating/assembling our own universe similar to this one?
My point I guess is that it feeds our egos to make men like us more than they are or God less than He is. Of course there is in my mind an equal an opposite danger in putting God (and our spiritual leaders for that matter) so far above us that we cease to aspire to the spark of the divine that is in each one of us. Do either of these problems occur with following Baha'ullah? I don't know; you tell me. I've definitely seen both extremes in Christians
I could say no, and another Baha'i could come along and say yes.
goes back to the level of difficulty in comprehending what a Manifestation is.
there's God (outside human understand)
there are Manifestations (bridging the gap, to helping humans make sense of The Infinite)
and then there are humans
an outsider would most definitely say Baha'is "put God so far above us that..."
a reference was once used about "but kissing" for what it is that sacred scripture sets out to do in glorifying God:
In the Name of God, the Most High! Lauded and glorified art Thou, Lord, God Omnipotent! Thou before Whose wisdom the wise falleth short and faileth, before Whose knowledge the learned confesseth his ignorance, before Whose might the strong waxeth weak, before Whose wealth the rich testifieth to his poverty, before Whose light the enlightened is lost in darkness, toward the shrine of Whose knowledge turneth the essence of all understanding and around the sanctuary of Whose presence circle the souls of all mankind.
How then can I sing and tell of Thine Essence, which the wisdom of the wise and the learning of the learned have failed to comprehend, inasmuch as no man can sing that which he understandeth not, nor recount that unto which he cannot attain, whilst Thou hast been from everlasting the Inaccessible, the Unsearchable. Powerless though I be to rise to the heavens of Thy glory and soar in the realms of Thy knowledge, I can but recount Thy tokens that tell of Thy glorious handiwork.
By Thy Glory! O Beloved of all hearts, Thou that alone canst still the pangs of yearning for Thee! Though all the dwellers of heaven and earth unite to glorify the least of Thy signs, wherein and whereby Thou hast revealed Thyself, yet would they fail, how much more to praise Thy holy Word, the creator of all Thy tokens.
All praise and glory be to Thee, Thou of Whom all things have testified that Thou art one and there is none other God but Thee, Who hast been from everlasting exalted above all peer or likeness and to everlasting shalt remain the same. All kings are but Thy servants and all beings, visible and invisible, as naught before Thee. There is none other God but Thee, the Gracious, the Powerful, the Most High.
Baha'u'llah
how does that feel to be a lawnmower man? must be a real rush.
I compare "Blessed are the peacemakers: because they shall be called the children of God" (Matt 5:9) from Jesus with "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son..." (John 3:16a) from John. Now it seems to me either we all can share in that divine heritage or we can not.
can't agree or disagree until I understand.
does that mean creating/assembling our own universe similar to this one?
does it mean writing our own plan of salvation, and creating/assembling souls into cognizant beings?
We have the power to create and that in my opinion comes from the the part of a human being that is transendant. Call it the soul, the spirit, the conscience, or atma there is something in each of us (at least as far as I can tell) that is more than just flesh and blood. Can that part of us expand to the point of being able to create a universe? I believe that it is possible, but I think it's more likely that those individual parts blend back into God and then He creates another universe. The same goes for the plan of salvation. If it needs to be recreated or even adjusted that's a job for God, but I put the posibilty to you that He may do so with some of our help.
Baha'is often make the comparison of plants basking in the light of the sun
to human souls "sharing" or "basking" in the glory of God.
yet there exists only One Source of Glory.
The sun is an excellent matephor for God in my opinion. But again I don't think human souls are resigned to only basking. The notion that we can become a giver of that heat and light (love and wisdom) is one to which I aspire. So when a fellow believer over-exalts another person in my opinion again they abdicate at least some of their responsibility to shine like the sun themselves. But it's a balancing act. I had a friend who wrote "You are Jesus" on a lot of his stuff. I'm sympathetic to bringing us up to the level that Jesus is on but don't think it is something automatic. Assuming that we're already their is one extreme while assuming we can never get there is the other.
there is no such thing as using the word heaven, for any place lacking the presence of Heavenly Father
because heaven...
IS the Glory originating from Heavenly Father.
which is why I dislike the word heaven being applied to any realm OTHER than the presence of HEAVENLY Father.
I have no contention with these ideas. But for me the notion of heaven means that God is in a particular place to which we can go. The "Glory originating from Heavenly Father" doesn't in my opinion extend everywhere equally, so by internalizing and reflecting that glory we can make earth more like heaven.
"Better a live sparrow than a stuffed eagle" -E. Fitzgerald
