May 6, 2011 -- 4:51PM, Markezuma wrote:

As I understand it the Bab and Baha'ullah are considered by Baha'i to be the eighth and ninth Manifestations. That has me pondering why there would be two messengers at once. Were we so reprobate that it took an unprecedented combo to shape up our world? Or on the other hand were we so spiritually advanced that the duality of messengers would be a help rather than a hindrance. To your knowledge did the two ever disagree and if they didn't why would it be necessary to repeat the same thing twice? Just wondering.

the complexity of this question, shows me a deeper understanding of Baha'i theology

by a non-member than I have yet to see... very impressive

while it is true they existed on earth at the same time,

they were not "declared" Manifestations "at the same time".

you know how Moses wasn't acting in God's name before the burning bush?

Jesus wasn't speaking with the authority of God before the descension of the Holy Spirit at the baptism?

and Muhammad wasn't penning canonized scripture before Gabriel appeared in the cave?

so it is with the Bab not speaking in God's authority prior to (my brain is unable to access memory of the Bab's event).

and it was years (6 if my memory isn't totally messed up) after the Bab's martyrdom that Baha'u'llah experienced the Maiden of Heaven visiting to inform Him of His station as a Manifestation.

when I discovered they never met... were never once in the same location at the same time,

which is completely unusual given Baha'u'llah's background and reputation making Him the most influential member.

means the Bab surely would have wanted to meet and congratulate Baha'u'llah.

yet the hints which the Bab dropped as to knowing Baha'u'llah would be "the One" for whose mission the very title "the Bab" is by definition "the gate" announcing the impending arrival of the One Greater.

makes me believe the Bab was trying not to place added attention on Baha'u'llah as that would equate directly into greater harm by the authorities.

John the Baptist was not a Manifestation,

but the comparison of JtB / Jesus

with the Bab / Baha'u'llah is exactly the same.

Hello Markezuma ~

As I understand it the Bab and Baha'ullah are considered by Baha'i to be the eighth and ninth Manifestations. That has me pondering why there would be two messengers at once.

As Aka_me has already explained, the two did not reveal Their revelations at the same time.  Nor did the Bab know who the "One greater than Myself" would be to follow Him.  As for the closeness of Their revelations, each Sacred Text of the Abrahamic faiths has "end time" or "last day" prophecy of the appearance of two entities:

• Judaism:    Elijah & Messiah ben David or "Lord of Hosts"
• Zoroastrian:    Hushidar-Mah ("Gate of Wisdom") & the "World Savior" Shah Bahram
• Christianity:    Elijah & return of the Christ in the "glory of the Father"
• Shi'ite Islam:    the Qa'im & return of Imam Husayn
• Sunni Islam:    the Mahdi & and return of the "Spirit of God" (the Christ)

This Day, from the Baha'i viewpoint, was promised to ALL the peoples of the world.  Each Scripture foretold of it and even indigenous tribes without a Book have some form of oral tradition about the coming together of humanity in such a Day.  Christ told His followers to always be watchful and to expect His return "in the glory of the Father" to possibly be like that of "a thief in the night" when He would be least expected:

Be watchful…If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come upon thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know at what hour I will come upon thee.  (Rev. 3:2-3)

And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched… Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.  (Luke 12:39-40)

The mission of the Bab (the Gate/Door) was not only to prepare the way for Baha'u'llah (glory of God/the Lord) but also to close the Adamic cycle which included end-time prophecy of the Age to come.  I believe that the following end-time prophecy from the Jewish Tanakh points directly to both the Bab and Baha'u'llah.  It not only refers to them by name but They both came from Persia, geographically "east" of the Holy Land.

And the Glory of the Lord came into the house by way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. (Ezekiel 43:4)

To your knowledge did the two ever disagree and if they didn't why would it be necessary to repeat the same thing twice? Just wondering.

The two never met and Their writings seldom repeat things except and unless Baha'u'llah was confirming something said/written by the Bab.  The Bab's al-Bayan was to a large extent explanations of the figurative verses in the Qur'an directed at Muslims, whereas Baha'u'llah's writings were addressed to all of humanity and His laws are aimed at the establishment of universal brotherhood.

May 7, 2011 -- 1:28PM, world citizen wrote:

To your knowledge did the two ever disagree and if they didn't why would it be necessary to repeat the same thing twice? Just wondering.

The two never met and Their writings seldom repeat things except and unless Baha'u'llah was confirming something said/written by the Bab.  The Bab's al-Bayan was to a large extent explanations of the figurative verses in the Qur'an directed at Muslims, whereas Baha'u'llah's writings were addressed to all of humanity and His laws are aimed at the establishment of universal brotherhood.

to my knowledge

there is no such thing as one instance of disagreement.

in a prayer called the Tablet of Ahmad...

Baha'u'llah refers to the Bab as "the King of the Messengers", and refers the al-Bayan as "the Mother Book".

And that the One Whom He hath sent forth by the name of ‘Alí¹ was the true One from God, to Whose commands we are all conforming.

Say: O people be obedient to the ordinances of God, which have been enjoined in the Bayán by the Glorious, the Wise One.  Verily He is the King of the Messengers and His book is the Mother Book did ye but know.

the Bab's scripture is still considered canon by Baha'i.

though it would more common to find Baha'is reading from the prayer book which includes canonized scripture from the Bab.

The pair I am thinking of as this discussion goes on is Peter and Paul. Peter aimed his argument mostly at the Jews (as the Bab mostly focused on Muslims if I'm understanding correctly). Paul addressed his message primarily to the Gentiles (as Baha'ullah spoke to the whole world). This analogy holds as long as it can be admitted that the message of latter two was from and about the unmanifest God having any similarity to the preaching by the former two about about the man Jesus Christ. I am comfortable with it but it of course reduces the majesty of the Manifestations as I have a tendency to do. The repetition in the Koran that one should not esteem one prophet above another plays into that tendency.

There have been a lot of people with stronger faith than I have and many that were more spiritual people. I have no problem with assigning the Bab and Baha'ullah into that category. And I meant no offense by assigning Peter and Paul to that category as well. For me it's kind of like trying to judge the height of a mountain from down on the plain. If that height seems similar or greater in some cases it is probably more likely from proximity (closer objects look bigger) than any real assessment of who really had the stronger faith and was more spiritual. But it does seem to me to be a matter of degree rather than a inherent difference. Even with Christ I tend to argue that we exalt him beyond his actual station. I am all too sympathetic to the notion that he was a brother rather than a father. That attitude rubs off on any other spiritual leader, and the more a person harmonizes with that weakness in myself the more I am likely to try to follow his or her example. I will never be a Manifestation so trying to be more like one seems a fools errand. But we are all inspired by the same spirit when we're inspired at all. I seek after that inspiration and usually set for myself more modest goals like Peter, Paul, of Joseph Smith for that matter than trying to make a much more tremendous leap of faith to Jesus (or probably Baha'ullah). Again I apologize if the comparison doesn't do justice to the actual station of the Bab or Baha'ullah, but I have far less confidence what that is than a practicing Baha'i.