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Switch to Forum Live View Rapture and Secoming Coming
7 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2011 - 6:04PM #1
Posts: 3
where can I find an OBJECTIVE, SCRIPTURAL study of the Rapture and The Second Coming--online, a book, etc. I want to compare the scriptural proofs of a PRE, MIDDLE or POST Rapture in a fair way to make up my own mind. Wikipedia has a good article on "Rapture" but it does not give the scriptural proofs. And I don't want to get someone's opinion--I want to see it all laid out and make up my own mind. any ideas?

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7 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2011 - 11:51PM #2
Posts: 688

There are many books written about the Second Coming of Christ. Usually they begin with an agenda either about when a 'Rapture ' will take place or whether there is in fact going to be a 'Rapture' Remember that the word itself does not appear in Scripture and so that makes it difficult to be objective.

One old book which uses the Scriptures well is called: A New heaven and a New Earth -- an introductory study of the Second Advent by Archibald Hughes put out by Marshall Morgan and Scott. It is now out of print but you may find it at Amazon.Com.

The passage often referred to with regard to the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

One commentary states : The picture Paul draws of the day when Christ will come is poetry, an attempt to describe what is indescribable. At the Second Coming Christ will descend from heaven to earth. He will utter the word of command and thereupon the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God will waken the dead, then the dead and the living alike will be caught up in the chariots of the clouds to meet Christ; and thereafter they will be forever with their Lord. We are not meant to take with crude and insensitive literalism what is a seer's vision. It is not the details which are important. What is important is that in life and in death the Christian is in Christ and that is a union which nothing can break.

Others see that this is to be taken literally and so the idea of 'caught up' leads to 'Rapture' belief.

My take, for what it is worth, is that those alive at Christ's first coming misunderstood the Scripture references so badly they failed to accept Christ. This warns me to be very careful about the details of His Second Coming in case, like them, I miss the point.


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7 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2011 - 9:41PM #3
Posts: 11,795

Here's my "cut + paste" assembly of Scripture dealing with the Second Coming...with annotations and comments...for what it is worth !

The SECOND COMING...Let the Spirit interpret the words of Jesus of Zazareth, the Christ, the Messaih, the God-Man.
Where  are we now ? ..."birth pains". (PRE-TRIBULATION)

Matthew 24   Jesus... Signs: End of the Church Age ...the TRIBULATION and GREAT TRIBULATION...4-28 (NASB)
leading up to The SECOND COMING....

3...(Disciples:)...what will be the sign(s) of your (SECOND) coming and of the end of the (CHURCH) age?"

4Jesus answered:
    "Watch out that no one deceives you.
5  For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, (ANTI-CHRISTs) and will deceive many.
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed.
   Such things must happen, but the end (of TRIBULATION) is still to come.
7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
   There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 
8 All these are the beginning of "birth pains". (PRE-TRIBULATION)

(First 3.5 years of TRIBULATION?...rise of the ANTI-CHRIST + REBUILD TEMPLE = his appearance in TEMPLE
 9 "THEN you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death,
     and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
10  At that time many will turn away (APOSTASY) from the (SPIRIT GUIDED) faith (in Jesus)
      and will betray and hate each other,
11  and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12  Because of the increase of wickedness, the love (OBEDIENCE to Jesus) of most will grow cold,
13  but he (the BELIEVER surviving in the TRIBULATION) who stands firm (in SPIRIT GUIDED faith)
      to the end (of the Tribulation) will be saved ( from APOSTASY)...( from WORSE and DEATH...see v. 22)
>>>>>"STANDING FIRM" is NOT a condition of SALVATION<<<<<
14  And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations,
      and then the end (of the first half of the Tribulation) will come(...begin GREAT TRIBULATION...last 3.5 years)

 15  "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'
        spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
16   THEN  let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17    Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.
18    Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.
19    How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
20   Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
21   For THEN there will be great distress (GREAT TRIBULATION),
        unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. (Armegeddon)
22   If those days had not been cut short (by the SECOND COMING),
        no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.
23   At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' not believe it.
24   For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles
       to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.
       (indwelling of God the Holy SPIRIT in believers may make it IMPOSSIBLE)
25   See, I have told you ahead of time.
 26  "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out;
       or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
27   For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the (SECOND) coming

The SECOND Coming of the Lord

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 (NIV)
 13 Brothers (BELIEVERS), we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep (Body dies),
or to grieve like the rest of men (UNBELIEVERS), who have no hope.(...BELIEVERS have hope/faith in eternal life )
14 We  (BELIEVERS) believe that Jesus died and rose again and
so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep (Body dies) in (BELIEVING IN) him.
15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we (BELIEVERS) who are still alive,
who are left till the (SECOND) coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep (Body died).
16 For the Lord himself (Jesus) will COME DOWN from HEAVEN, (in the Resurrected Spirit-Body of Jesus?)
with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
and the dead (bodies)  in Christ (BELIEVERS) will rise first.
17 After that, we (BELIEVERS) who are still alive and are left will be caught up (snatched/raptured)
together with them ("dead in Christ") in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (spiritual "heaven").
And so we will be with the Lord forever....(body/soul/spirit reunited and in the presence of Jesus in heaven)
18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
...(there is No SPIRIT / SOUL waiting in "paradise" for its Body to be with the LORD and meeting fellow BELIEVERS)

2 Thessalonians 1:7
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.
This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

When and How will Jesus RETURN (the Second Coming) ?

Acts 1: 6-11...(The "Ascension")
 6 So when they (12 disciples minus Judas) met together (the FINAL time),
they asked him, (the Resurrected Jesus in His "SPIRIT/ NEW BODY)
"Lord, are you at this time going to restore the (God dwelling) kingdom to Israel?"
7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you;
and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
 9 After he said this, he was TAKEN UP before their very eyes, and a CLOUD hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the SKY as he was going,
when suddenly two men dressed in white (angels) stood beside them.
11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the SKY?
This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into HEAVEN,
will COME BACK in the same way you have (just) seen him go into HEAVEN."


Zechariah 14:4
On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem,
and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west,
forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south

The Great Commission...Jesus' Last Words on Earth
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain (of Olives) where Jesus had told them to go. (prior meeting place)
17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in HEAVEN and on EARTH has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.".(..and until the NEW HEAVENS?)


1 Thessalonians 5
 1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,
2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord (SECOND COMING)
   will come like a thief in the night.
3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety,"
   destruction will come on them suddenly,
   as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Matthew 24:    The Day and Hour Unknown
 36 "No one knows about that day or hour,
not even the angels in heaven,
nor the Son,
but only the Father.
37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,
     up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.
     That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken (snatched/raptured?) and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken (snatched/raptured?) and the other left.
 42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming,
he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.
44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Revelation 22:  Jesus IS Coming AGAIN!
 7 "Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."
12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!"
     And let him who hears say, "Come!"
     Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
20  He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
      Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.


There Are certain things that apparently have to happen, or come about, before the next factor in prophecy
can come into play.

One: Israel had to become a nation again, which it did in 1948.
If we hold that 'the latter days' in prophecy refer to the 'end times',
then we can tie the prophecies of Ezekiel and Daniel and many of the other prophets to the end times.

Two: The focus will be on Israel and the Middle East, and the focus is upon oil.

Three: There must arise a one-world, and subversive, government led by a megalomaniac dictator.

Four: This government will align itself with a religious order in an unholy partnership,
leading the faithful to take a passive focus upon this person,
but after short time, this dictator will turn upon this partnership and set himself up to be worshiped.

Five: This world government will have a computerized tracking system for every person on the planet.
They will either be traced by microchip or some other media.
People will not be allowed to buy or trade unless they voluntarily submit to this system.

Six:This dictator will also make a pact with Israel of non-interference in it's affairs,
and allow them to re-build the Temple.
Some say this is an actual temple, some spiritual. I believe it is actual.

Seven: A coalition of nations lead by Russia, will come up and attack Israel.
If we are to believe Ezekiel, God will, for one of the few times in history show a direct judgment
and He will destroy this coalition, whether using the force of this dictator or His own wrath.
The armies meet at Megiddo in the valley of Jezreel, on the plain of Esdraelon where Armageddon will commence.

Armageddom, where man will wipe himself out with nuclear war technology, precipitates the return of Christ.

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7 years ago  ::  Feb 22, 2011 - 11:48PM #4
Posts: 4,716

I am persuaded, after living the past 35 years as a Christian, that God is longsuffereing toward mankind, and is not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance… therefore I am somewhat disgruntled towards Christians focused upon the last days and the coming of the Lord. And believe me – I was one’em for decades.

 If Jesus were to come for His Church today – how many of you have loved ones who are not saved and would likely face a horrible fate during the great tribulation? Is that what you want for them?  Do you think that is what God wants for them? Remember, the Bible says that “God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life.”  

 The question I have for you is – do you care for the lost? Or are you so concerned with missing the Rapture, that you don’t care about your fellow man? My Bible says that we are to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to everyone. Is that what you are doing, or are you boning up on the Rapture of the Church and all the various positions prophecy buffs spend their time debating?

 Let me assure you of this one thing – God loves you. And if God loves you, and you love God, then you have no reason to fear that Jesus will come for His Church and leave you behind. How can I be so sure? Because Scripture says that “God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

 So the reality is – weather you die tomorrow, or are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord – you belong to Him. Thus it does not matter if the Rapture happens tomorrow, or the day after you die, in the middle of the Tribulation, or at the end of days when 2/3s of humanity lay dead or dying because of the plagues. If you belong to God, having been redeemed by the blood of Jesus – you will wake up in His presence.

So honestly folks – there is lots of good stuff in the Bible you need to know better and more than when the Rapture happens. You need to know how to love God and your fellow man, you need to know how to give a good testimony, how a soft answer turns away wrath, and how to keep yourselves unspotted from the world. The Christians of the ancient Church wrote one line in their Creed about the coming of the Lord – one line. That He is coming again to judge the living and the dead – and frankly beyond that – no man knows the day or the hour and no one who thinks he does knows what they are talking about.

 So seek the Lord while He may be found – don’t waste your time boning up on prophecies about Israel and the last days, the antichrist and when he will be revealed – make the Lord Jesus the focus of your life and let God worry about when to send the Lord Jesus back for you.

 ~ Theophilus

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7 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2011 - 12:56AM #5
Posts: 11,795

Theo: Nice off point sermon....ron

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7 years ago  ::  Feb 25, 2011 - 11:10AM #6
Posts: 981

hi Raven,

One of the best books that I've read regarding the second advent of the Christ, and unarguably the one with the most Scriptural reference, is The Sign by Van Kampen.

God bless you.

In Christ, Ted

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 01, 2011 - 9:58PM #7
Posts: 1

AMEN Theo!!! WELL said!!!

All I can say is...Keep your eyes on Jesus and the rest will fall into place!!!





† And The Anchor Holds †

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 04, 2011 - 7:05PM #8
Posts: 494

Yeah,  that long, detailed post looks impressive  but like you, especially this late in the day, I'm not that much into details.   Might read  it  some  morning.  

One question,  aren't  those  24  elders  beheaded  to  get  there  rather  than  raptured?   Please forgive me, folks, for being too  tired  tonight  to  look up the chapter  right now and find out for sure.  

I've always felt  the  Second Coming would be after the Trib, and that the years  may not be literal,   as  Daniel's  70 wks  weren't,  and have heard that the word Rapture isn't actually in the Bible, that  saving us from the Wrath to Come  means  God's  wrath, not the Beast's. 

Editing to add that, top of  Rev. 12 really  sounds like we  have to be here to defeat the accuser,  risking our lives, like the early martyrs.   Does  it  make  sense that any new converts  could  handle  that  job?        

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 05, 2011 - 10:39AM #9
Posts: 4,367

Raven: Try Revelation and the End of All Things by Craig Koester (Augburg Fortress Press...available via Amazon.) It's a book written for laypeople by a NT scholar, and helps lay out the best contemporary understandings of the Book of Revelation in a way anyone can understand.

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 08, 2011 - 7:16PM #10
Posts: 280

Jan 6, 2011 -- 6:04PM, RavenNevermore wrote:

where can I find an OBJECTIVE, SCRIPTURAL study of the Rapture and The Second Coming--online, a book, etc. I want to compare the scriptural proofs of a PRE, MIDDLE or POST Rapture in a fair way to make up my own mind. Wikipedia has a good article on "Rapture" but it does not give the scriptural proofs. And I don't want to get someone's opinion--I want to see it all laid out and make up my own mind. any ideas?  Raven

You do realize that the idea of a rapture is a new theory, don't you? And that no one believed it before about 200 years ago?

The rapture theory teaches that Christ will take away all the believers, let the world go through literal hell for seven years, and then return in Glory. Traditional Christianity believed that Christ would return in Glory, that there was no "secret return" seven years earlier. For the majority of Christian history, in fact, premillennialism was considered a heresy. The majority of all Christians who have ever lived believed in amillennialism. Did you know that MArtin Luther, John Calvinm Thomas Cramner, and John Wesley none believed in premillennialism or a rapture?

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