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Switch to Forum Live View DO CATHOLICS AND OTHER CHRISTIANS COMMIT IDOLATRY?
4 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2010 - 10:23AM #1
ola
Posts: 23

The Bible says in Deuteronomy  5:8, when Moses was presenting the 10 commandments: "You  shall not make yourself an idol in the form of anything in  heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.   You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I  the Lord your God, am a jeaulous God..."


Jesus said: "I  am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father  except  through me." (John  14:6).


So then, is it correct for Catholic churches and  other churches ot have statutes of saints and Mary in their church?  I  grew up in a Catholic church and it was often that people woud touch the  feet of Mary or do the sign of the cross in front of her statute when  entering the church.  Also, just yesterday I went to St. Patrick's  Cathedral Church in NYC (as i have gone many times) and there you will  see many sections of the statutes of different saints and their story.   That's not a problem but in front of them is a kneeling board and rows  of candles that people light to kneel and pray in front and/or to them.


Not  to mention that Catholics have prayers for saints and the "Hail Mary"  prayer.  Isn't this worshipping 'idols'?  Jesus said that, "no one comes  To the Father EXCEPT THROUGH ME."  Why then would we pray kneeling  before a saint or Mary or say a prayer in their name? 


I must  say, I did this yesterday without thinking of it but lately I've been  thinking about what it means to worship idols and then today I was  reading the Bible and it stated that nothing/no one, not even in the  heavens (i.e. angels, saints, Mary) shall be made into an idol,  worshipped (i.e. praying to them) or bowed down to. 

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2010 - 4:01PM #2
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

 If that was entirely the case, the Ark of the Covenant would be an infraction of the Second Commandment. There were things that God told Moses to make to adorn the Tabernacle.


That said, the devotional use of art is suspect and treads the thin boundary between complying with or violating the Second Commandment.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 18, 2010 - 2:07PM #3
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Oct 14, 2010 -- 4:01PM, Roodog wrote:


 If that was entirely the case, the Ark of the Covenant would be an infraction of the Second Commandment. There were things that God told Moses to make to adorn the Tabernacle.


That said, the devotional use of art is suspect and treads the thin boundary between complying with or violating the Second Commandment.





I think the better example is the brass serpent.


 Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
 Nu 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.


 


2Ki 18:1 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 
 2 Twenty and five years old was he when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Abi, the daughter of Zachariah. 
 3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.
 4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.


Or consider that defense to images that they are not worshipped but reverenced; Yet the ancient Jews considered reverence to be worship due only to God and would not bow to noble or King. see Esther.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 18, 2010 - 3:14AM #4
Ilovesarahm94
Posts: 1

I do have to say that I personaly consider what the Catholic church does falls under idolatry.  However, a person can make anything into their personal idol.  (Evan money)

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3 years ago  ::  Nov 18, 2010 - 8:15PM #5
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Nov 18, 2010 -- 3:14AM, Ilovesarahm94 wrote:


I do have to say that I personaly consider what the Catholic church does falls under idolatry.  However, a person can make anything into their personal idol.  (Evan money)





Especially Money!


You cannot serve God and Mammon.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2010 - 7:01AM #6
Bezant
Posts: 1,338

Hello ola


 


As a respectful visitor I will give the Catholic perspective on intercessory prayer to the saints and imagery in liturgy, which is similiar to the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox positions.


It is redundant for me stress that the Church of course does not equate the saints or the Virgin Mary with God in any Person.


The Church differentiates between adoration (worship) and veneration (reverence), the first which is due to God alone, and the second which is due to the saints, including the Virign Mary:


 


"...In Scripture, the term 'worship' was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b).


A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word "worship." Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word "worship" by referring to "the worship of latria" or "the worship of dulia." To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing."


 


www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.a...

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2010 - 8:03AM #7
Bezant
Posts: 1,338

On the question of imagery in liturgy;


Just as intercessory prayers to the saints are not the focus of Catholic liturgy in either the Eastern or Western Rites, so to are the images not a focus but an incorporation in the commemoration of the Crucifixtion and Resurrection.


The usage also varies according to tradition. You may notice, in many, but not all Catholic churches, that the statues and icons are placed in such a way that they frame but not dominate the altar. Many cathedrals especially in France, Spain and Italy have a more lavish exterior and comparitively bare interior. In the Eastern Rite churches, as it is in the Orthodox Church, three-dementional art is rare.


Theoretically, when the invisible God became visible by the Incarnation we could have an image of him:


"2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh  ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the  veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the  angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God  introduced a new "economy" of images." (CCC)


 


Also, we have Scriptural as well as Traditional basis:


 


"People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim." (www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.a...)


 


And, we must understand the differentiation between adoration and veneration as I provided previously:


 


"2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the  first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to  an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image  venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images  is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:


Religious worship is not directed to images  in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive  aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the  image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose  image it is." (CCC)


Furthermore,


"The fact that someone kneels before a statue to pray does not mean that he is praying to the statue, just as the fact that someone kneels with a Bible in his hands to pray does not mean that he is worshiping the Bible. Statues or paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the saints by looking at representations of them." (www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.a...)


Happy Christmas,


Bezant

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2010 - 6:22PM #8
Evangelos06
Posts: 93

In my previous faith life as a  SBC member I saw Christians make idols out ? Missions,the Bible,.the Church, tithing  and  so  on.  So anything can be an idol if it takes the  place  of God .


So lay off  the RCC  please . And let he  who has not mase something/anything out side of God an idol  throw the  1st stone. OK  massive paraphrase  but I think you get the drift. Blessings

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2010 - 7:31PM #9
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

If you had read the other posts in this thread the RCC is not as abused as you might think.


We had spoken of the Ark of the Covenant and the Brazen Serpent, of avarice and greed on this thread.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 13, 2010 - 10:08AM #10
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

and the understanding from 1st temple Judaism that even honoring a king is Idolatry-all veneration of any sort is due only to God

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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