| 3 years ago :: Oct 14, 2010 - 10:23AM #1 | |
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The Bible says in Deuteronomy 5:8, when Moses was presenting the 10 commandments: "You shall not make yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God, am a jeaulous God..." Jesus said: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6). So then, is it correct for Catholic churches and other churches ot have statutes of saints and Mary in their church? I grew up in a Catholic church and it was often that people woud touch the feet of Mary or do the sign of the cross in front of her statute when entering the church. Also, just yesterday I went to St. Patrick's Cathedral Church in NYC (as i have gone many times) and there you will see many sections of the statutes of different saints and their story. That's not a problem but in front of them is a kneeling board and rows of candles that people light to kneel and pray in front and/or to them. Not to mention that Catholics have prayers for saints and the "Hail Mary" prayer. Isn't this worshipping 'idols'? Jesus said that, "no one comes To the Father EXCEPT THROUGH ME." Why then would we pray kneeling before a saint or Mary or say a prayer in their name? I must say, I did this yesterday without thinking of it but lately I've been thinking about what it means to worship idols and then today I was reading the Bible and it stated that nothing/no one, not even in the heavens (i.e. angels, saints, Mary) shall be made into an idol, worshipped (i.e. praying to them) or bowed down to. |
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| 3 years ago :: Oct 14, 2010 - 4:01PM #2 | |
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If that was entirely the case, the Ark of the Covenant would be an infraction of the Second Commandment. There were things that God told Moses to make to adorn the Tabernacle. That said, the devotional use of art is suspect and treads the thin boundary between complying with or violating the Second Commandment.
For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible. St. Thomas Aquinas If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9 |
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| 3 years ago :: Oct 18, 2010 - 2:07PM #3 | |
I think the better example is the brass serpent. Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
2Ki 18:1 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. Or consider that defense to images that they are not worshipped but reverenced; Yet the ancient Jews considered reverence to be worship due only to God and would not bow to noble or King. see Esther.
Non Quis, Sed Quid
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| 3 years ago :: Nov 18, 2010 - 3:14AM #4 | |
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I do have to say that I personaly consider what the Catholic church does falls under idolatry. However, a person can make anything into their personal idol. (Evan money) |
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| 3 years ago :: Nov 18, 2010 - 8:15PM #5 | |
You cannot serve God and Mammon.
For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible. St. Thomas Aquinas If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9 |
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| 3 years ago :: Dec 11, 2010 - 7:01AM #6 | |
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Hello ola
As a respectful visitor I will give the Catholic perspective on intercessory prayer to the saints and imagery in liturgy, which is similiar to the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox positions. It is redundant for me stress that the Church of course does not equate the saints or the Virgin Mary with God in any Person. The Church differentiates between adoration (worship) and veneration (reverence), the first which is due to God alone, and the second which is due to the saints, including the Virign Mary:
"...In Scripture, the term 'worship' was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not. A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.
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| 3 years ago :: Dec 11, 2010 - 8:03AM #7 | |
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On the question of imagery in liturgy; Just as intercessory prayers to the saints are not the focus of Catholic liturgy in either the Eastern or Western Rites, so to are the images not a focus but an incorporation in the commemoration of the Crucifixtion and Resurrection. The usage also varies according to tradition. You may notice, in many, but not all Catholic churches, that the statues and icons are placed in such a way that they frame but not dominate the altar. Many cathedrals especially in France, Spain and Italy have a more lavish exterior and comparitively bare interior. In the Eastern Rite churches, as it is in the Orthodox Church, three-dementional art is rare. Theoretically, when the invisible God became visible by the Incarnation we could have an image of him: "2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images." (CCC)
Also, we have Scriptural as well as Traditional basis:
"People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).
And, we must understand the differentiation between adoration and veneration as I provided previously:
"2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone: Furthermore, "The fact that someone kneels before a statue to pray does not mean that he is praying to the statue, just as the fact that someone kneels with a Bible in his hands to pray does not mean that he is worshiping the Bible. Statues or paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the saints by looking at representations of them." (www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.a...) Happy Christmas, Bezant |
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| 3 years ago :: Dec 11, 2010 - 6:22PM #8 | |
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In my previous faith life as a SBC member I saw Christians make idols out ? Missions,the Bible,.the Church, tithing and so on. So anything can be an idol if it takes the place of God . So lay off the RCC please . And let he who has not mase something/anything out side of God an idol throw the 1st stone. OK massive paraphrase but I think you get the drift. Blessings |
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| 3 years ago :: Dec 11, 2010 - 7:31PM #9 | |
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If you had read the other posts in this thread the RCC is not as abused as you might think. We had spoken of the Ark of the Covenant and the Brazen Serpent, of avarice and greed on this thread.
For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible. St. Thomas Aquinas If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9 |
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| 3 years ago :: Dec 13, 2010 - 10:08AM #10 | |
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and the understanding from 1st temple Judaism that even honoring a king is Idolatry-all veneration of any sort is due only to God
Non Quis, Sed Quid
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