I suppose this was the best title for the thread. I have several questions.
(1) Why do Muslims and Bahai's both believe that Jesus in John 14 was referring to Muhammad, rather than to the Holy Spirit? It seems obvious to me that the promise of Jesus was made manifest on Pentecost, not at the advent of Muhammad. Furthermore Jesus promised that the Spirit of truth would bring all things to our rememberance, and that he would be with us forever. Baha'u'llah and Mohammed both died, as did all of the other prophets.
(2) Why do Bahais refuse to accept a literal, visible, second coming of Christ? If we believe the virgin birth really happened, and everything Jesus ever said and did really happened. Then why would his second coming not also literally happen?
(3) Why do Bahai's say that when the Tanakh or the New Testament refer to the "glory of YHVH" or "glory of the LORD" it refers to Baha'u'llah? Baha'u'llah is not Hebrew, and I spoke with a man from Morrocco recently who says it is not Arabic either -- so therefore it must be Persian or Farsi.
(1a) In referring to the Holy Spirit in John 14 the words used are allos parakletos. Allos is a word meaning of the same kind, substance, or activity. According to the Trinity, Jesus was of this substance before he incarnated as a man. "Before Abraham was, I AM!"
(4) Why does Baha'u'llah say Mohammed said "I am Jesus"? Most Sunnis would deny this, as this would seem to be a Shia or Sufi belief. I never read any of the ahadith that claim this.
(5) Jesus said in the Gospel according to St. John that if we believed in Moses, we would believe in him for Moses wrote about him. Even after the resurrection on the road to Emmaus, he had shown Cleopas and another disciple all things that were spoken of him and why everything had to happen the way it did beginning with Moses, and then with the Writings and the Prophets. If we put Baha'u'llah and Mohammed both to the same test, if they are in fact prophets -- we should be able to prove their claims.
Furthermore,
Does the Baha'i faith fulfill this prophesy of Christ? "At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect -- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lighting that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather." (Matthew 24:23-28)
Also, in Acts it's stated: "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky?' This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11)
So it seems that according to the context of this, that the Second Coming doesn't appear to be a secret event. It sounds like an event that everybody will notice.
In_my_opinion, You said that if I already made up my mind what's the point in further discussing any of this? I haven't really made up my mind, it's just a few interesting things that I've been considering. I really do want to believe that Baha'u'llah speaks the truth. I have always found it completely illogical that a loving God would only save Christians, and send the rest of his beloved creation to eternal torment.
But all of these are serious issues, which should be addressed -- especially if anyone else comes asking them. They can always refer back to certain threads.
(6) The Bahai promise of World Unity is quite scary indeed. According to most Protestant Christians today, this will be the task of the Antichrist. We are told in the epistle to the Thessalonians that the end will not come, until that man of lawlessness is revealed. In Revelations the antichrist also has a false prophet that backs him according to most interpretations.
If such a thing really did happen, I think there would be a lot of fear parading on the streets, don't you?
"In_my_opinion, You said that if I already made up my mind what's the point in further discussing any of this? I haven't really made up my mind, it's just a few interesting things that I've been considering."
Dear Truth Seeker,
The actual words and context were:
"Would ask you to bring up each and every one of these separately in a thread of its own. Would you mind doing that? Agreed that they couldn't all be covered in one post. But they could be covered, each in a thread of its own. Will only ask that you concentrate specifically on the items that interest you most keenly. That way the questions will be answered and not cause boredom. If, you already accept something; then, there's no sense in going on and on about it, is there?"
Was not saying that you had already made up your mind; rather that if you agreed with something, we could just move along to the next topic.
You have again chosen to bring up a long list of different questions which has a topic scattering effect. Please, then; forgive if only one item is chosen for response.
"(2) Why do Bahais refuse to accept a literal, visible, second coming of Christ? If we believe the virgin birth really happened, and everything Jesus ever said and did really happened. Then why would his second coming not also literally happen?"
Why didn't Noah get the flood right away? Why didn't Jesus the Christ come the same way the Jews expected the Messiah to show up? True reality is a spiritual one. His Kingdom is not of this earth.
If, you are fooled by a crown of thorns yesterday; then, why shouldn't you swallow literal stars falling from Heaven today?
Was there a sword? Certainly! Was it a metal blade wielded as a weapon? No.
Did it cleave parent from child? As surely as there is a Heaven!
On top of that, which is more literally likely: coming "as a thief in the night" and only the watchful and wakeful seeing Him or coming down out of the clouds, all eyes seeing Him?
Both of those are Gospel Truth. Denying either of these texts of the New Testament is denying the Word of God. If, you accept that allegory is truth and parable is clearer explanation; then, why would you say they are lies? Which is it then? aren't you a true Christian?
What it says is don't be blind, wake up! But many will be shaken and few will wake.
You can follow the blind. There they go, hand upon the shoulder of the one ahead. Going around in circles, thinking they're getting somewhere because they're not running full tilt into something painful or precipitous. Not realizing that they are leaderless because the first in line also has his hand on a shoulder. On the shoulder of the last in line!
The weakness is not in the Word. It is our own weakness. Our own lack of understanding should not be confused as a contradiction in the truth. Just because someone is seeing double doesn't mean there are actually two things; it means he's not completely sober.
"(6) The Bahai promise of World Unity is quite scary indeed. According to most Protestant Christians today, this will be the task of the Antichrist. We are told in the epistle to the Thessalonians that the end will not come, until that man of lawlessness is revealed. In Revelations the antichrist also has a false prophet that backs him according to most interpretations."
Okay, how about some actual Bible back up for that stuff? Nothing very direct is there, huh? It is vague, farfetched, far out, nonsense. Dig into it and see for yourself! Your own "interpretations" are much more likely to be closer to the truth than the campfire ghost legends meant to keep the flock from sneaking off instead of huddling trembling in their tents; too scared to sing the praises of their Lord among wonders of nightingales and starry skies.
Let us reason together, then. A household is peaceful if it is united. A city the same. A state that is well governed in itself, will not have internal strife. Federated with other states into a nation it will have peace and be mighty. A whole continent under the same laws and good rule will prosper even more. These are the stories of India, Australia, Canada, the United States of America and soon the European Union. It is the clear social evolution of humanity. The next step is the willing federation of all the world's countries into a world government.
Don't accept the scare stories and vague fancies of the naysayers. Every step that has spread the rule of law more broadly has come with the necessity of the contented and eventually fully consented agreement of the governed. That is why democracy will always be the final stage of succession and freedoms will gradually stabilize every land. Any group that is competitively successful will continue. Any that isn't will either change for the better or collapse. The larger the area and particularly the population, the better educated the people, the sooner it will happen there. It is just too unwieldy to try to have order and excellence without that consent, the bigger and more diverse a body of people. The principle applies even more strongly at the highest level.
(1) Why do Muslims and Bahai's both believe that Jesus in John 14 was referring to Muhammad, rather than to the Holy Spirit? It seems obvious to me that the promise of Jesus was made manifest on Pentecost, not at the advent of Muhammad.
it is entirely possible the Bible was referring to Muhammad, someplace, any place...
but I have yet to learn of "Baha'is believing" the Bible refers to Muhammad.
the Bible was written TO the Hebrew people, FOR the Hebrew people, BY Hebrew people.
and Muhammad came to Arabs.
at the time that Moses was talking... He was talking "to individuals"
at the time Jesus was talking... He was talking "to communities"
at the time Muhammad was talking... He was talking "to all Arabs"
at the time Baha'u'llah was talking... He was talking "to all human kind".
but as far as the Bible is concerned, it specifically says:
My bad. If WC or somebody wanted to correct the mistake, that would be fine with me. But you raise a good point IMO! I never thought about the "thief in the night" vs. "every eye shall see him even those that pierced him". The Bible has several passages which appear contradictory like this, but when seen with a deeper light begin to make more sense.
I was just thinking last night of how morals change all the time. Moses originally allowed divorce, then Jesus forbade it, and now most people seem to think it's okay again. So there's got to be more to it than just a "one-time" revelation.
and yet it was prophecy (or the MIS-interpretation thereof) that caused the Jewish people to fail to comprehend the station of Jesus.
prophecy has to the potential to be a dangerous thing, the moment MIS-interpretation starts happening.
my own personal opinion is to use the reason and intellect that God gave us.
the beauty of the logic, and reason, that God has used, in creating Progressive Revelation, which gave rise to ALL the religions
is a sign of the patients, and grace, and wisdom, of The Almighty.
Dear Aka_me,
True. To this day the Jews insist that Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with the Messiah, but is about Israel, and Christians say it does. Christians and Jews interpret many passages differently that Christians believe it refers specifically to Jesus. I have heard it said that the Jews changed their interpretation in the 7th century or the Middle Ages, but regardless they still both interpret it differently.
but I have yet to learn of "Baha'is believing" the Bible refers to Muhammad
There are definitely portions of the Bible that allude to Islam, especially Revelation. The Book's promise of the "two witnesses/prophets" (Muhammad/'Ali), the "beast" (the Umayyads), the "seven heads/seven crowns" (the Umayyad Dynasty's countries/rulers) who would "kill them" (pervert their teachings), and references to the Holy Land's 1260-year "time of the gentiles" (Islamic rule) are all explained by 'Abdu'l-Baha in "Some Answered Questions."
Ye have been forbidden in the Book of God to engage in contention and conflict... ~Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas
To this day the Jews insist that Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with the Messiah, but is about Israel, and Christians say it does. Christians and Jews interpret many passages differently that Christians believe it refers specifically to Jesus.
Christians who interpret Isaiah as pointing to the appearance of Jesus ignore completely "And it shall come to pass in the last days..." (2:2). This indicates that all prophecy to follow in Isaiah was 'end-time' prophecy about the coming of the "Lord of Hosts." Only two passages later, in 2:4, does it foretell the now famous: "... and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." In 53:10 it's clear that the One to be "bruised" was to "see his seed" (ie., progeny) and that the Lord was to "prolong his days" - neither of which pertained to the life of Jesus.
Ye have been forbidden in the Book of God to engage in contention and conflict... ~Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas
(1) Why do Muslims and Bahai's both believe that Jesus in John 14 was referring to Muhammad, rather than to the Holy Spirit? It seems obvious to me that the promise of Jesus was made manifest on Pentecost, not at the advent of Muhammad. Furthermore Jesus promised that the Spirit of truth would bring all things to our rememberance, and that he would be with us forever. Baha'u'llah and Mohammed both died, as did all of the other prophets.
Jesus promised a “Comforter” (paraklētos in Greek, advocate, counselor). The same word is found in Joh_15:26 (2), Joh_16:7 and 1Jo_2:1.
In the last verse, 1 Jo 2:1, Jesus is identified as the Comforter. In Joh 14:16, Jesus says He will send “another” Comforter (i.e., different from Himself). These verses seem to me to indicate a physical presence, not the Holy Spirit. Because Jesus also mentions the Spirit of Truth (14:17), it is a little confusing. But in 14:18, Jesus indicates that the Spirit of Truth is already in the disciples. Therefore, I think this verse rules out the Holy Ghost which came upon the disciples at Pentecost.
In John 15:25-27, Jesus refers to the Comforter saying that “He shall testify of me.” The Holy Spirit which entered the disciples caused them to testify of Jesus but did not testify on its own but only through the disciples.
In John 16:13, Jesus says that He has more things to tell us but we cannot bear them now. The disciples did not tell us anything other than what Jesus told them and what the implications were of what Jesus told them. (See 2 Co 11:4 and Gal 1:6)
Another series of verses which indicate a physical presence are the following which are the basic foundation for God’s Eternal Covenant: i.e., that He will not leave us alone but will always send us Someone to guide us.
In this first verse (below), Joseph indicates that “God” will visit the people and that they will carry his bones from Egypt. Here we have a figurative message (“God” in the Person of Moses visits the people) and a literal message (that the Hebrews would carry the bones of Joseph from Egypt). Another way to look at it is to acknowledge both the literal (carrying the physical bones of Joseph) and the spiritual message (carrying the “bones” of the teachings of Joseph (i.e., the religion that they lived under) with them into the desert). In the spiritual message, their religion had been stripped of all meaning except for the basics and possibly the actions rather than the spiritual intent of the actions of their religion.
According to the Scripture, Moses is the “God” that the people are expecting (see Exodus 4). Here is another interesting thing. Moses is complaining that the people will not believe that He speaks for God and that He doesn’t speak well. So God teaches Him signs and then appoints Aaron as the Voice of Moses. He says that Moses will be God unto Aaron. Does this fulfill the prophecy of Joseph that “God” will visit the people? Is this a literal fulfillment or a spiritual fulfillment?
When Moses’ mission is complete, He promises that God will raise up another Prophet “like unto me” (Moses in Exodus 4). That is, a Prophet Who is “God” to the people, Who is a descendant of the people and Who will speak the Words of God. The Scripture further states that at the time of the Kings, no one yet fit that prophecy.
Likewise, when the turn of Jesus comes, He sometimes speaks as “God” and other times makes a distinction between Himself and God. Because of the confusion caused by this term during the time of Christ, Muhammad makes a clear distinction between Himself as the “Mouth” of God (see the relationship between Moses and Aaron) and the essence of God. The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh continue with that distinction and explain the context of the term “God” as applied to the Manifestation of God.
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Genesis 17:1-10
And Israel said unto Joseph, Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers. Genesis 48:21
And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he swear to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence. Genesis 50:24-25
And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee... That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee… And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign… And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well… And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God. Exodus 4:1-16
The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me [Moses]; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
HB-Deuteronomy 18: 15-20
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 5:46-47
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter (Paraclete), that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:16-17
And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
NT-Acts 3:17-23
A similar (favour have ye already received) in that We have sent among you an Apostle of your own, rehearsing to you Our Signs, and sanctifying you, and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom, and in new knowledge. Then do ye remember Me; I will remember you. Be grateful to Me, and reject not Faith.
Qur’án 2.151-152 (Yusuf Ali translation)
One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims (the faithful).
Qur’án 16.89 (Yusuf Ali translation)
Say, He Whom God shall make manifest is but one of you; He will make Himself known unto you on the Day of Resurrection. Ye shall know God when the Manifestation of His Own Self is made known unto you, that perchance ye may not stray far from His Path.
The Bab: Selections from the Bab, p 144
Arise, in My Name, amongst My servants, and say: 'O ye peoples of the earth! Turn yourselves towards Him Who hath turned towards you. He, verily, is the Face of God amongst you, and His Testimony and His Guide unto you.
(Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 19)
Abraham, on Him be peace, made a covenant concerning Moses and gave the glad-tidings of His coming. Moses made a covenant concerning the promised Christ, and announced the good news of His advent to the world. Christ made a covenant concerning the Paraclete and gave the tidings of His coming. The Prophet Muhammad made a covenant concerning the Báb, and the Báb was the One promised by Muhammad, for Muhammad gave the tidings of His coming. The Báb made a Covenant concerning the Blessed Beauty, Bahá'u'lláh, and gave the glad-tidings of His coming for the Blessed Beauty was the One promised by the Báb. Bahá'u'lláh made a covenant concerning a Promised One Who will become manifest after one thousand or thousands of years. That Manifestation is Bahá'u'lláh's Promised One, and will appear after a thousand or thousands of years.
(‘Abdu'l-Bahá, Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 114)
