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Switch to Forum Live View Islamism - an ideology not about Islam
4 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2010 - 10:42AM #31
Erey
Posts: 18,594

Jun 15, 2010 -- 10:30AM, mountain_man wrote:


Jun 15, 2010 -- 10:21AM, Erey wrote:

I disagree that Islamism is not a response, it is a response and I guess also a natural outcrop of ideology.   Most movements are a mix of the two.  You can't say Islamism is not a response.



 


"Islamism" is a response. It is a label placed on another group in response to a need to demonize others.


 


It is a response to modernity, like most religious fundamentalism is a response to modernity.



 


In this case fundamental Islam is a response to disenfranchisement, or a lack of power over most aspects of their lives. Figure out some what to improves the lives and living conditions of these people and the fundamentalism will go away.




Well Man, I don't mind demonizing people with a label when they hang 7 year olds and blow up offices and market places .  But I am just that way, intolerant I guess.  I won't argue with you on that. 
We all lack power over our lives but that does not mean the Islamists don't have excellent living conditions.  If you look up their bios they have college educations, nice upper-middle class lives some even have wine, women and song.  Shit, they live better than most us.

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2010 - 10:48AM #32
Kmarundel
Posts: 1

If Islamism isn't a reaction to all the reasons you mentioned in your first post and instead has a long tradition by other names, forces, etc. (which I'm willing to accept to an extent), your explanation still misses the point.  "Islamism", what you seem to mean to be nostalgic fervor for a past that has become tainted with innovation and whatever else, is indeed nothing new, but it is not anti-Western per se in its past either.  Much of Islam's movements have been concerned with the community of Muslims, if I recall rightly, and less to do with exerting its power and influence to crush the infidels.


 Military action was taken in its beginning for the same reason that it takes place today - temporal power.  And we know that many people in history have used their religion to justify other goals.  We must also remember that along with that conquest came benefits for many of the conquered too; it wasn't a one-way street. ;)


"Islamism" as its been called may have very old roots in an always-active attempt to return Islam to its core (even if the attempts are misguided) but the manifestation that we see today is as much to do with Western imperialism and 19th-century Zionism turned to reality in 1948 than it does with its old ties to that vein of intense, sometimes violent, reformism.  This time, though, the "reform" means pushing out Western influence and re-exerting Arab or Muslim influence, something that wasn't an obvious problem before the late 19th century.  So, while I think you are correct in recognizing a proactive vein throughout the history of Islam that rejects innovations and adaptations, I disagree that the modern movement is removed from reaction to Western influence and dominance. :)


-- Matt

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2010 - 10:59AM #33
mountain_man
Posts: 39,119

Jun 15, 2010 -- 10:42AM, Erey wrote:

Well Man, I don't mind demonizing people with a label when they hang 7 year olds and blow up offices and market places .  But I am just that way, intolerant I guess.  I won't argue with you on that. 



Not all Muslims agree with hanging children or blowing up markets. The label is used to demonize a small fraction is Muslims but then the line is blurred and ALL Muslims are painted with the same brush. The term "Islamism" is being use to taint ALL Muslims.


We all lack power over our lives.....



Not to the same degree.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2010 - 12:14PM #34
Erey
Posts: 18,594

Jun 15, 2010 -- 10:59AM, mountain_man wrote:


Jun 15, 2010 -- 10:42AM, Erey wrote:

Well Man, I don't mind demonizing people with a label when they hang 7 year olds and blow up offices and market places .  But I am just that way, intolerant I guess.  I won't argue with you on that. 



 


Not all Muslims agree with hanging children or blowing up markets. The label is used to demonize a small fraction is Muslims but then the line is blurred and ALL Muslims are painted with the same brush. The term "Islamism" is being use to taint ALL Muslims.


 


We all lack power over our lives.....



 


Not to the same degree.




 


Once again I am going to have to plead that your genius eludes me and I probably am incapable of grasping your higher point.  I don't get how a label is used to be distinguishing for benefit of the majority but then it is hatefull because it is not distinguishing.


Hey, you can't claim I don't know my limitations.

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2010 - 12:22PM #35
mountain_man
Posts: 39,119

Jun 15, 2010 -- 12:14PM, Erey wrote:

Once again I am going to have to plead that your genius eludes me ....



Then I can't help you. Sorry.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2010 - 4:38PM #36
browbeaten
Posts: 3,093

Jun 15, 2010 -- 10:30AM, mountain_man wrote:


 


Jun 15, 2010 -- 10:21AM, Erey wrote:

I disagree that Islamism is not a response, it is a response and I guess also a natural outcrop of ideology.   Most movements are a mix of the two.  You can't say Islamism is not a response.



 


 


 


"Islamism" is a response. It is a label placed on another group in response to a need to demonize others.


 


Labels as "Islamism" or "Islamist" is an attempt to separate the violent fundamentalist Muslims from all other peace loving Muslims.


 


It is a response to modernity, like most religious fundamentalism is a response to modernity.



 


In this case fundamental Islam is a response to disenfranchisement, or a lack of power over most aspects of their lives. Figure out some what to improves the lives and living conditions of these people and the fundamentalism will go away.


 


Load of crap.  It is a response to what they consider to be an attack on their belief system.  They have not been able to let others believe as they like, they have to force their beliefs on everyone else.  Their disenfranchisement is self induced by their archaic value system and refusal to move into the next century.


 


.


 






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4 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2010 - 4:42PM #37
mountain_man
Posts: 39,119

Jun 15, 2010 -- 4:38PM, browbeaten wrote:

Labels as "Islamism" or "Islamist" is an attempt to separate the violent fundamentalist Muslims from all other peace loving Muslims.



And then paint the whole religion with the same brush.


Load of crap....



yes, your reply was.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2010 - 4:51PM #38
browbeaten
Posts: 3,093

Jun 15, 2010 -- 4:42PM, mountain_man wrote:


Jun 15, 2010 -- 4:38PM, browbeaten wrote:

Labels as "Islamism" or "Islamist" is an attempt to separate the violent fundamentalist Muslims from all other peace loving Muslims.



And then paint the whole religion with the same brush.


Load of crap....



yes, your reply was.




I guess you just can't accept the idea that there are more and more Muslim adherents to fundamentalism which is morphing into a ideology that has also created a level of pride amongst Muslims by creating a nemesis that they call all rally behind.  Have I been able to paint the whole region with the same brush now?


.


.

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2010 - 5:17PM #39
mountain_man
Posts: 39,119

Jun 15, 2010 -- 4:51PM, browbeaten wrote:

...Have I been able to paint the whole region with the same brush now?



Yes.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2010 - 5:28PM #40
browbeaten
Posts: 3,093

Jun 15, 2010 -- 5:17PM, mountain_man wrote:


Jun 15, 2010 -- 4:51PM, browbeaten wrote:

...Have I been able to paint the whole region with the same brush now? 



 


Yes.




Good.  Now we understand each other.


.

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