| 3 years ago :: Jun 11, 2010 - 11:50AM #1 | |
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Guess what? Three chapters in Revelation show worshippers obeying the commandment to "SING" accompanied by instruments, called harps by John, possibly because he couldn't name them all, because lyres/harps are a logo today for all sorts of instruments. (Or, of course, maybe they were actually all harps, who knows?) Point being, whether they're in heaven or on Christian TV, they're WORSHIPPERS. Three passages commend the instruments, compared to just the one that just says "SING". Hope I'm articulating this well enough. It may take some thought, some adjusting, when you've been brainwashed for a lifetime that the one word includes a prohibition, which just isn't there and we're not to add one, to the Word. Back when they had to worship in the catacombs, they probably had to be very quiet and inconspicuous, couldn't be seen carrying instruments, so they probably worshipped without instruments, like when they sang an hymn and went out from the Mt. of Olives, when things were happening. So it's not a sin to worship without instruments. Hating other denominations and individuals for using them would be so obviously a sin. And jealousy is easier to spread than Christian love, so organists are accused of playing too loudly, which occasionally, I grant you, can happen, but not with the better trained ones. I personally feel organ in church is more dignified than piano, but I play both. I'm from another B'net forum, just stumbled on this one by accident. Hope I'm not intruding. The Revelation chapters about the singing are ch. 5, ch. 14, and ch. 15. Revelation seems to be sort of a summary, ends with the dire warnings not to add to or subtract from The Word. It obviously means don't add any prohibitions that aren't there. The three passages in the concluding book of the Bible obviously don't contradict the one verse that just says to sing, and who knows, translators may have just left out "play skillfully", a term found in Psalms, and God never really changes, in what He likes, right? He used to wink at some sins but now commands everyone to repent, but that just goes along with "the law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ", isn't really a change. I'm sure the Israeli's still use instruments. They do help to stay in tune. A pitchpipe at the beginning doesn't last all the way through a song. Campbell just didn't read far enough in the NT and I'm afraid led a lot of people astray. Maybe not fatally. Would God give us a book we couldn't hope to ever understand? We're to pray for wisdom, understanding, James 1. Can we obey this and become more peaceable with other believers? No church is perfect yet, because they're all run by mere humans. We're just aspiring, growing. I've had some of my paying jobs sabotaged, and believe me, the word "play" doesn't mean it isn't labor, going through stacks of music to pick just the right three or so that a pastor has left up to you to chose, maybe going there to rehearse it in the middle of the week, etc. They say I make it look so easy. That's from a lifetime of accompanying others and making them feel like they're "star quality" and that I'm just an accompanist, like a machine. Not really complaining. I get lots of compliments too. Just think about those verses in Revelation and how THEY RELATE TO the one that just says to sing. Maybe it's to show that you don't always have to have instruments if none are available or there are no players available. Or maybe some of it just accidentally got left out. You can't subtract the passages in Revelation. It seems to be the summary of the whole Bible. Contains some dire warnings we didn't see in the previous books and a list of those who'll not make the cut. JMO.
Eagle
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| 3 years ago :: Jun 18, 2010 - 12:24PM #2 | |
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The fact that all faiths agree that not using mechanical music for worship does not violate scripture, necessarily relates there is no scriptural or divine command to use it. Thus, to worship with MIM is merely a choice of human thinking. Jake |
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| 3 years ago :: Jun 19, 2010 - 7:17AM #3 | |
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Right. I agree. Thanks for the reply. Oh, and I don't think they should preach a doctrine that wasn't preached, originally. Because of the verse I'm sure you know, "If anyone teach any other gospel (or was it doctrine?) than that which was preached, let him be accursed."
Eagle
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| 3 years ago :: Jun 21, 2010 - 12:46AM #4 | |
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Since there is no direct statement (such as 1 Pet. 3.21 saying that baptism saves us) telling us that music in the worship of God is to be only unaccompanied, it is only through one's interpretation of the Bible that one can come to the conclusion that this is so. While we all must interpret the Bible as best we can, we have no business pushing our interpretations on others.
Darryl |
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| 3 years ago :: Jun 22, 2010 - 11:16AM #5 | |
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How do you interpret something that doesn't exist? 1 Peter 4:11, If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God... Where is the utterance of God commanding to be worshipped with MIM? Jake |
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| 3 years ago :: Jun 22, 2010 - 8:56PM #6 | |
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The EXAMPLE, in Heaven, or, possibly on a sea of TV screens, ("seeming glass mingled with fire") is imo the same as a COMMAND, was commended three times in the summary book of the Bible, Revelation. Commend comes after Command has been obeyed, and has the same effect, imo. Some even claim instrumental music is nowhere mentioned in the NT, just didn't read far enough. They rationalize that Revelation can't be understood and just don't read it, I suppose, but imo it's a tremendously important book, and we're to pray for wisdom and understanding, James 1. We need to know all the identifying clues about "the beast" who's the Accuser of the Brethren, in religion (heavenly) circles, and of a modern woman somewhat similar to Mary, in the time of flying, and in the time of the beast false prophet. He's also an Opposer of the Brethren, and women, cross reference 2nd Thessalonians 2. and whoever even believes his lies will be allowed to have strong delusions and perish. (Probably because we've been given such strong WARNINGS in Revelation, what to watch out for, and not to go along with. ("Take his mark.") It's vital to read it. Wish Alexander Campbell had bothered to read it instead of causing so much division.
Eagle
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| 3 years ago :: Jun 22, 2010 - 9:49PM #7 | |
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If you think Campbell cause division, consider the beliefs of these great scholars; |
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| 3 years ago :: Jun 24, 2010 - 10:37AM #8 | |
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Hi, I don't dis agree with you about those others. Here's a question that might interest all of us. What was the original word that's now translated harps in the three places in Revelation? What language was it, and can it mean other instruments besides the lyres a/k/a harps that David played. Because, if any of you were ever in a school marching band, we had "lyres" to insert into our instruments to hold music, remember? They seem to be a logo for all instruments. I belong to the international federation of musicians, and it's used in their letterhead. We need to know all about that word.
Eagle
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| 3 years ago :: Jun 24, 2010 - 2:17PM #9 | |
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I believe a better question is, should we understand "harp" or "harps", in Rev 5:8, 14:2 and 15:2, as being literal instruments or symbolic for something else? And, how are these "harps" relative to God commanding earth bound flesh and blood humans to worship with MIM? Another question: doesn't John say his writing the revelation stemmed from a vision given him by Christ? And that the recipients were the seven churches of Asia? Exactly how many of these churches then began to worship with MIM because of John's vision? Again, and the same conclusion rings true, to worship with MIM is merely a choice of human thinking. Jake |
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| 3 years ago :: Jun 30, 2010 - 9:37AM #10 | |
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Jake, good question, how many of the seven churches of Asia started using instrumental music, but we just aren't told, probably because it isn't vitally important, if some churches don't have instruments or people to play them, and maybe they were even already using it, like in the Temple worship, for all we know. I'm sure you'll agree.
The reason there's no DIRECT COMMAND is imo in the paragraph above, that churches weren't as wealthy as the Temple had been, and sometimes they were having to worship in secret, like in the catacombs, because at that time they were considered rebels against the Temple, right? Peter healed a man at the Temple, though, so they did evidently sometimes go there.
I for one am interested in learning why these chapters mention harps, and "the harps of God", and when I tried a search I found one opinion that harps are the Jews" national instrument. Which I suppose would go along with the chapters about the 144,000 plus, so many from each Jewish tribe. Jesus said No man comes to the Father but by me, so they'd have to convert, maybe when we all see Him coming in the clouds? They've been believing they have an everlasting Covenant of their own that has not been amended. I'm putting this in the form of a question, not claiming to really know.
No doctrine was preached, that we know of, about instrumental music, so, remembering, If anyone preach another gospel than that which was preached, let him be accursed, does anyone or any group have any right to make an issue of instrumental music? Listing the verses that just say sing doesn't prove at all that instruments are outlawed. There's no direct command and no Thou shalt not. So how can we make a doctrine of it and claim the other denominations are going to hell? Isn't that like the Pharisees, who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others? Didn't Jesus strongly disagree with them? So wouldn't the self-righteousness and control efforts, dividing families, be extremely sinful? Editing to add another question, if "the harps of God" are symbols of something else, then what? All instruments, maybe? Because there've been quite a few world- famous Jewish violinists. And in football games/parades marching bands, they have little lyre-shaped devices to hold their music, which attach to the instruments, or, in the case of flutes, I think are held by a stem under the arm, and these lyres are the universal symbol now for all instrumental music, used in the International Federation of Musicians' logo. Is there anything else harps could stand for? And if so, why didn't John just say so? Again, we don't know a thing about the music in those seven churches of Asia, can't assume anything.
Eagle
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